HC Deb 09 April 1935 vol 300 cc1022-9

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Duchess of ATHOLL rose—

5.13 p.m.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Before I call upon the Noble Lady, I should explain that as the Government have given notice that they propose to put down a new Schedule dealing with these questions it would seem to us far better that any Amendment we take should be taken in the proper place, on the Schedule. Also, I believe it was agreed by the small informal Committee that any discussion of this Clause should be very brief and that detailed discussion should take place later

5.14 p.m.

Major MILNER

I think we ought to have some further information on this matter. This is an extremely important Clause empowering His Majesty in Council to make provision with respect to all these matters set out in the Clause. Will the proposed Schedule include all the qualifications and all the factors in all types of constituency For example, are the matters of special interest, the representation of labour, and various matters of that sort going to be clearly defined and set out in the Schedule? And will the Committee have an opportunity of discussing these proposals and putting forward Amendments if they so desire? Then there are various other franchises than the national franchise, and I am very doubtful, whether the right hon. Gentleman intends to include them in the Schedule. For example, are they going to provide in this Schedule for Provincial electoral colleges and so on, or are they going to be left in the air and decided at a future date by Order in Council? The Committee ought to have all these facts in front of them before they pass this Clause and ought to know that it will not be dealt with sometime in the future by Order in Council. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give us some assurance on these extremely important points, particularly in regard to the qualifications of special interests and the representation of labour. The Clause provides that an Order in Council may be made in regard to the delimitation of territorial constituencies. I always understood that it was the intention of the Government to appoint a committee or commission, probably of gentlemen in India, to do that delimitation. At what stage is it proposed that that shall he done? Will it. be after the Bill passes or when the Schedule comes before us?

5.16 p.m.

Duchess of ATHOLL

Am I right in thinking that under paragraph (b) it will be possible by Order-in-Council to do away with communal electorates? That is how I interpret that paragraph. If I am right, it is a very serious matter. Hindu witnesses, indeed, put the case against them extremely well before the Joint Select Committee. They showed that communal electorates are incompatible with real democracy in that they make it difficult or impossible to create an alternative government, and for that reason they take away from the value of any veto given to the Governor-General or Governor. But great importance is attached by the Moslems in India to communal electorates, and, if I read this paragraph aright, it is a dangerous thing to make it possible for His Majesty's Government at any time by Order-in-Council so to alter the qualifications entitling persons to vote in territorial or other constituencies as to do away with the principle of communal electorates.

5.18 p.m.

Miss RATHBONE

I want to express the slight anxiety I feel lest the later opportunities of discussing this matter on the Schedule may become shortened. We have been told to-day that there will be seven days for the discussion of new Clauses and Schedules, and possibly nine. Since the original time-table was drawn up there has been an arrangement to add another Schedule dealing with franchise. The number of important questions in the Schedules alone is very great, and, if any of the time is eaten up on the Clauses, the time left will be very much shortened. If the discussions on the Clauses are prolonged, will it mean that the whole of these important Schedules will have no discussion at all?

5.19 p.m.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Butler)

The hon. And gallant Member for South East Leeds (Major Milner) and other hon. Members must be aware that the proposed new Schedule has been in the Library for a short period, and it has been possible for hon. Members to study its contents. I am sure that the hon. and gallant Member will have taken great interest in it in view of the part he took on the Franchise Committee, and I appreciate his interest in the matter. The draft Schedule relates to the territorial constituencies and not to the special interest constituencies or Labour seats, or to the franchise for the Provincial Upper Houses. My right hon. Friend, in answering a question a few days ago, announced that the Schedule would contain the suggested franchise for the territorial constituencies. The Committee will be sympathetic when 1 tell them that a great deal of labour has been involved in putting this franchise into the form requisite for a Schedule, and it has not been possible in the time for the officers in Provincial Governments or our own officers here to finish this work at the present stage. The Joint Select Committee did not decide on a franchise for the Provincial Upper Houses, to take one instance. I would remind the hon. and gallant Member that the franchise, for example, to do with special constituencies for the Upper Houses will be brought before the House by Order-in-Council and the House will have full opportunity of considering it. There was general agreement in the Committee upstairs, and it was the wish of my right hon. Friend to include the franchise in a Schedule to this Bill. It is in order to meet the wishes of hon. Members that we have taken this course, and in the time at our disposal it is as much as we have been able to do.

The hon. and gallant Member for South East Leeds asked about Mae delimitation of the territorial constituencies which is referred to in paragraph (a) of this Clause. It is not the time to talk about setting up other bodies until we have got the Bill through, but it has been our intention to set up a small delimitation commission to deal with territorial or other constituencies.

Mr. ISAAC FOOT

Composed of Indians?

Mr. BUTLER

At the present moment, I cannot go into its constitution. Later, when we get to the end of this Measure, it will be possible to give the House further information about our decision in this matter. The noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) asked whether paragraph (b) would give an opportunity for changing from communal to ordinary electorates. That is not the interpretation that I put on this paragraph, and the assurance that I will give to the noble Lady is that the communal award is governed by the original terms of that award; that is to say, that after 10 years, if there be agreement between the communities, action will be taken by His Majesty's Government. This Clause does not add anything to the communal award or alter its terms. The hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) has throughout taken a great interest in women's franchise, and I appreciate her anxiety to have an opportunity to discuss this matter. The Government wish to have the fullest discussion upon this Schedule when the time comes. The quicker we are able to get on to-day, the more time we shall have when we come to the Schedules to discuss this matter in detail. The hon. Lady has several Amendments on the paper, and when we come to them we shall attempt to give her the fullest possible answers and to consider all these important matters with' the seriousness that they deserve.

5.24 p.m.

Colonel WEDGWOOD

I would like before we pass on and leave this Clause to be certain whether or not it is possible to allow changes from communal to separate electorates to be made under the Clause. Once it is in the Schedule there will be no chance for 10 years, and then only subject to the agreement of both parties, an agreement which, I fear, you will never get in places where it is most wanted, like Sind and Bengal. If we gave in this Clause the opportunity to His Majesty in Council to make a change we should have far more support for this Bill in India. The Government have the power here to vary the franchise and to make all sorts of modifications in it as laid down in the Schedule. Why cannot we include also the power to make this change? Is it a definite stipulation that we made with Mohammedans that that change shall not be made, or is there any other reason why, when we are giving to His Majesty in Council so many powers to vary the franchise and the constituencies, we do not also give the power to make this change, which is of great importance to India? We know, of course, that we can discuss it when we come to the Schedule, but this is not a question of the initial franchise. We are discussing on this Clause the question of possible changes in the franchise. This is a question of empowering the Government to make a change, and, if we leave it to the Schedule, there is no power for the Government to make a change for 10 years, arid then only if there be agreement between the parties, which will never be arrived at.

5.26 p.m.

Mr. OSWALD LEWIS

I want to ask your guidance, Sir Dennis. A statement was made from the Chair before you came in, and I am not clear about one particular. There is on the Order Paper an Amendment which seeks to provide that His Majesty in Council should not debar women who possess the necessary qualifications from being members of certain bodies although seats may be reserved for women on those bodies. It would seem at first sight that this is the convenient point to raise that matter. If the Clause be passed as it now stands, will it still be possible to raise that question on the Schedule?

The CHAIRMAN

My view is that that is a matter which should be discussed on the Schedule.

Mr. COCKS

Do I understand from the Under-Secretary that the qualifications for the franchise for the Second Chambers in the Provinces will not be in the Schedule, and that we shall not have an opportunity of discussing that when we pass this Clause?

Mr. BUTLER

I said that.

5.28 p.m.

Sir S. HOARE

I made that clear in correspondence which I had with the hon. Member. I ought before we pass this Clause to say a word or two in answer to the right hon. and gallant Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Colonel Wedgwood). Let me assure him that there has been no agreement between His Majesty's Government and the Moslem community or any other community. We came to our decision upon the merits of the case. There has been nothing in the nature of an agreement between us or any community upon the subject. We did what we thought to be just, and I believe that it was just. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman attempted to persuade the Committee that we should give His Majesty's Government power by Order-in-Council to alter the communal award. I cannot imagine a more unwise or more dangerous action for us to take. Greatly as we regret the need for these communal decisions, I believe that if we once gave the impression in India that the question was again open, we should not only plunge ourselves into endless controversy, but we should do something much more serious; we should plunge India into a controversy the end of which I could not foresee. I therefore hope that we may leave this Clause as it is, and have the full discussion upon the problem at issue when we come to the Schedule. If by chance the right hon. and gallant Gentleman is then able to persuade the Committee against the view of the Government—I hope and believe that will not be the case—it may be necessary to make consequential rearrangements in earlier parts of the Bill, but in any case I think the right course is to take the debate when we come to the Schedule.

5.31 p.m.

Major MILNER

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman who, with his usual courtesy, has answered my question so fully, but I am not very happy about the passing of this Clause. So long as the Committee recognise that discussion on these important matters will take place in part on the Schedule, in so far as the Schedule covers them, and that in so far as the other part is concerned it is postponed indefinitely, I have no more to say, but I do not feel happy about the situation, though I appreciate the difficulty which the Government have had in putting into concrete form franchise proposals which are so very complex. They cover a large amount of ground in this case, bringing in questions of finding representation for landowners, the mining industry and labour. Apparently all those matters are to be left over until this Bill has been disposed of and then dealt with by Orders in Council. I should like to have seen the proposals on the Table, but that is not possible. As long as the Committee appreciates the position I do not think we on these benches can usefully say any more.

5.32 p.m.

Duchess of ATHOLL

We all accept the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that there was no agreement between the Government and the Moslem community in regard to the communal award, but I think he will bear me out that one of the Moslem delegates, before going back to India in November, 1933, left a memorandum with the Joint Select Committee which shows the enormous importance the Moslem community attach to this question. He said the delegates had only come to the Round Table Conference to discuss Federation on the understanding that the communal award which had been given a few months before was not disturbed. That bears out what I said a few minutes ago, that that is the whole basis on which they came in to discuss Federation, and therefore it would be a very serious matter if by Order in Council His Majesty's Government should alter it.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill, "put, and agreed to.

Clause 274 ordered to stand part of the Bill.