§ Miss RATHBONE
I beg to move, in page 2, line 41, at the end, to insert—(2) No prosecution in England under this Act shall take place without the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.This Amendment is also, I believe, going to receive the support of the 314 Attorney-General, so I will move it very briefly, especially as we had last night an extremely full discussion on the general principle apropos of the Amendment then under discussion to require the consent of the Attorney-General. A great many of those who are opposing the Bill as a whole expressed a strong opinion in favour of that Amendment, but it was not accepted by the House. 'We shall all recognise that this Amendment, at any rate, makes a considerable move to ensure a certain continuity of policy and fixes the responsibility for a prosecution on some one individual instead of leaving it, as it was in the original form of the Bill, merely the responsibility of any person. This Amendment will be a considerable improvement in the Bill, and I should like to thank the Attorney-General for his undertaking to accept it.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ 10.42 p.m.
§ Major MILNER
I beg to move, in page 2, line 42, to leave out Subsection (2).
As I understand the position under the Bill, assuming an accused person has not asked to be tried by jury but to be tried summarily, it will be within the competence of the Director" to decline to permit that, and to have the case removed to the High Court. He will, in effect, therefore, have the right of choosing the form of trial. That should not be allowed, and the person concerned should have the right of choice.
§ 10.43 p.m.
§ Mr. JANNER
I beg to second the Amendment.
I do not think there will be any objection on the part of anyone to accept an Amendment of this description, for the obvious reason that if it be deemed advisable to take proceedings under this Bill instead of under the Acts which are already in existence, it is clear that the person accused should have the right, as he has in other matters, of deciding whether he will be tried summarily or go before a higher court. I should have thought that there would not be any question about the trial, but that, on the contrary, there would be anxiety on the part of the Law Officers to give the defendant the opportunity, as lie has in other matters, to decide for himself 315 whether he would accept one course or the other. He will find difficulty enough in that regard, but he does not require the assistance of the Director of Public Prosecutions. He will probably prefer the assistance of his own lawyer to explain to him whether it is preferable to go before a higher court or to have his case tried in the lower court. In these circumstances, I hope the learned Attorney-General will accept the Amendment.
§ 10.43 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
This Clause is not one appearing in a Bill for the first time. There is a similar Clause in other Bills, for the same purpose, where necessary. The Clause must rmain in the Bill for this simple reason, that otherwise it would be open to any person charged under this Measure to elect to be tried summarily, although he might be a very grave offender indeed, 'and in that case would be liable only to four months' imprisonment or a fine of £20. This Clause is necessary in order to prevent any such absurd result as that. The House will realise that it is not a question of depriving a man of his right to go before a jury. That was the complaint when the Bill was introduced—that a man could be tried summarily without having the opportunity of going before a jury. This Clause is to provide that a span shall go before a fury if the Director of Public Prosecutions thinks the case is so serious that it ought to be tried before a judge and jury.
§ 10.47 p.m.
§ Mr. COCKS
Is there not another reason for inserting this Clause? Supposing a man is arrested in a Labour centre, where it is rather reasonable to suppose that the magistrates might have Labour sympathies. The Director of Public Prosecutions could then say, "We will not let him be tried by these people" and take him away to another place Where the majority of the magistrates are Conservatives—as they generally are throughout the country. They might seize the man in some place like Merthyr Tydfil and say, "We shall remove you from that place and take you to another jurisdiction." I am only saying this because it is the feeling of a good many of my hon. Friends that that is the real reason behind this Clause, and not the reason so speciously put forward by the Attorney-General. What is really behind the view of the Government is that they are quite willing to trust the magistrates as long as they are of their own particular colour—[HON. MEMBERS: "No!"]—Oh, yes—but when those magistrates belong to the party of the Opposition they say, "We will not trust those people at all, we will remove the accused to another court." That is the real reason behind the Government's suggestion in this case, just as it is the real reason behind this abominable Bill.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 292; Noes, 68.319
|Division No. 376.]||AYES||[10.50 p.m.|
|Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel||Brocklebank, C. E. R.||Courtauld, Major John Sewell|
|Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.)||Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham)||Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry|
|Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd)||Brown,Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y)||Craven-Ellis, William|
|Applin. Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K.||Browne, Captain A. C.||Critchley, Brig.-General A. C.|
|Apsley, Lord||Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.||Crooke, J. Smedley|
|Aske, Sir Robert William||Burghley, Lord||Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)|
|Assheton, Ralph||Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie||Croom-Johnson, R. P.|
|Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley||Burnett, John George||Crass, R. H.|
|Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet)||Cadogan, Hon. Edward||Crossley, A. C.|
|Barclay-Harvey, C. M.||Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly)||Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard|
|Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell||Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley)||Culverwell, Cyril Tom|
|Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury)||Caporn, Arthur Cecil||Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)|
|Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.)||Carver, Major William H.||Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)|
|Bernays, Robert||Cayzer, Mal. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.)||Denman, Hon. R. D.|
|Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn)||Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)||Denville, Alfred|
|Borodale, Viscount||Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham)||Doran, Edward|
|Bossom, A. C.||Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton le-Spring)||Drewe, Cedric|
|Boulton, W. W.||Christle, James Archibald||Drummond-Wolff, H. M. C.|
|Bower, Commander Robert Tatton||Clarry, Reginald George||Duckworth. George A. V.|
|Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.||Clayton, Sir Christopher||Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel|
|Boyce, H. Leslie||Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.||Duggan, Hubert John|
|Braithwaite, Maj. A. N. (Yorks, E. R.)||Colfox, Major William Philip||Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)|
|Brass, Captain Sir William||Conant, R. J. E.||Eastwood, John Francis|
|Briscoe, Capt. Richard George||Cooke, Douglas||Ellis, Sir R. Geoffrey|
|Broadbent, Colonel John||Copeland, Ida||Elmley, Viscount|
|Emrys-Evans. P. V.||Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley)||Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)|
|Entwistle, Cyril Fullard||Loder, Captain J. de Vere||Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)|
|Essenhigh, Reginald Clare||Loftus, Pierce C.||Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)|
|Everard, W. Lindsay||Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.||Salmon, Sir Isidore|
|Flint, Abraham John||Lyons, Abraham Montagu||Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart|
|Fox, Sir Gifford||Mabane, William||Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard|
|Fremantle, Sir Francis||MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick)||Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.|
|Fuller. Captain A. G.||MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)||Savery, Samuel Servington|
|Gibson, Charles Granville||McConnell, Sir Joseph||Scone, Lord|
|Gillett, Sir George Masterman||Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)||Selley, Harry R.|
|Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt Hon. Sir John||McEwen, Captain J. H. F.||Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.|
|Glossop, C. W. H.||McKle, John Hamilton||Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)|
|Gluckstein, Louis Halle||McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)||Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)|
|Goff, Sir Park||Magnay, Thomas||Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.|
|Goodman, Colonel Albert W.||Maitland, Adam||Shute, Colonel J. J.|
|Gower, Sir Robert||Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest||Slater, John|
|Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.)||Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.||Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.|
|Grimston, R. V.||Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.||Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)|
|Critten, W. G. Howard||Marsden, Commander Arthur||Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)|
|Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E.||Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)||Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)|
|Guinness, Thomas L. E. B.||Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John||Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.)|
|Gunston, Captain D. W.||Meller, Sir Richard James||Somervell, Sir Donald|
|Guy, J. C. Morrison||Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)||Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)|
|Hales, Harold K.||Milne, Charles||Soper. Richard|
|Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford)||Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)||Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.|
|Hammersley. Samuel S.||Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale||Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.|
|Hartland, George A.||Moore, Lt.-Col. Thomas C. R. (Ayr)||Spens, William Patrick|
|Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n)||Moreing, Adrian C.||Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)|
|Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)||Morgan, Robert H.||Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'morland)|
|Haslam, Sir John (Bolton)||Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)||Stevenson, James|
|Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.||Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)||Stones, James|
|Heneage. Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.||Morrison, William Shepherd||Storey, Samuel|
|Hepworth, Joseph||Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.||Stourton, Hon. John J.|
|Herbert, Major. J. A. (Monmouth)||Munro, Patrick||Strauss, Edward A.|
|Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller||Nation. Brigadier-General J. J. H.||Strickland, Captain W. F.|
|Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston)||Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid||Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.|
|Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge)||Nunn, William||Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart|
|Hopkinson, Austin||O'Connor, Terence James||Sutcliffe, Harold|
|Hornby, Frank||O'Donovan. Dr. William James||Taylor. Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)|
|Horsbrugh, Florence||Oman, Sir Charles William C.||Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)|
|Howard, Tom Forrest||Orr Ewing, I. L.||Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)|
|Howitt, Dr. Alfred B.||Patrick, Colin M.||Thompson, Sir Luke|
|Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)||Peake, Osbert||Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles|
|Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport)||Pearson, William G||Todd, Lt.-Col. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)|
|Hume, Sir George Hopwood||Peat, Charles U.||Todd. A. L. S. (Kingswinford)|
|Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries)||Penny, Sir George||Touche, Gordon Cosmo|
|Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Romford)||Perkins. Walter R. D.||Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement|
|Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.||Petherick, M.||Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.|
|Iveagh, Countess of||Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bliston)||Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)|
|Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)||Pike, Cecil F.||Wallace, John (Dunfermline)|
|James, Wing-Com. A. W. H.||Powell. Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.||Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)|
|Jamieson, Douglas||Power, Sir John Cecil||Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)|
|Jennings, Roland||Procter, Major Henry Adam||Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)|
|Jesson, Major Thomas E.||Pybus, Sir John||Wardlaw-Mline. Sir John S.|
|Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan).||Radford, E. A.||Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.|
|Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)||Raikes, Henry V. A. M.||Waterhouse, Captain Charles|
|Kerr, Hamilton W.||Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M (Midlothian)||Weymouth, Viscount|
|Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger||Ramsay, T. B. W (Western Isles)||Whiteside. Borras Noel H.|
|Kimball, Lawrence||Ramsbotham, Herwald||Whyte, Jardine Bell|
|Kirkpatrick, William M.||Ramsden, Sir Eugene||Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)|
|Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton||Ray, Sir William||Williams. Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)|
|Law, Sir Alfred||Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)||Wills, Wilfrid D.|
|Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.)||Reid, David D. (County Down)||Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth)|
|Leckie, J. A.||Reid, William Allan (Derby)||Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)|
|Leech, Dr. J. W.||Renwick, Major Gustav A.||Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George|
|Leighton, Major B. E. P.||Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.||Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl|
|Lewis, Oswald||Rickards, George William||Wise, Alfred R.|
|Liddall, Walter S.||Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)||Womersley, Sir Walter|
|Lindsay, Kenneth (Kilmarnock)||Ropner. Colonel L.||Worthington, Dr. John V.|
|Lindsay. Noel Ker||Rosbotham, Sir Thomas||Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)|
|Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Phlilp Cunliffe-||Ross. Ronald D.|
|Liewellin, Major John J.||Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)||Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.||Mr. Blindell and Commander Southby.|
|Runge, Norah Cecil|
|Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South)||Cape, Thomas||Edwards, Charles|
|Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher||Cocks, Frederick Seymour||Evans, David Owen (Cardigan)|
|Attlee, Clement Richard||Cove, William G.||Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen)|
|Bonfield, John William||Daggar, George||Foot, Dingle (Dundee)|
|Betey, Joseph||Davies, David L. (Pontypridd)||Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin)|
|Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale)||Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)||Gardner, Benjamin Walter|
|Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield)||Davies, Stephen Owen||George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)|
|Buchanan, George||Dobbin, William||George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea)|
|Graham, D. M. (Lanark. Hamilton)||Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George||Rea, Walter Russell|
|Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.)||Lawson, John James||Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)|
|Griffiths, George A. (Yorks, W. Riding)||Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick||Salter, Dr. Alfred|
|Groves, Thomas E.||Logan, David Gilbert||Sinclair, Mal. Rt. Hn. Sir A.(C'thness)|
|Grundy, Thomas W.||Lunn, William||Smith, Tom (Normanton)|
|Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil)||McEntee, Valentine L.||Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, North)|
|Harris, Sir Percy||McGovern, John||Thorne, William James|
|Hicks, Ernest George||Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)||Tinker, John Joseph|
|Holdsworth, Herbert||Mainwaring, William Henry||West, F. R.|
|Janner, Barnett||Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot||White, Henry Graham|
|Jenkins, Sir William||Milner, Major James||Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)|
|Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields)||Nathan, Major H. L.||Wilmot, John|
|Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)||Owen, Major Goronwy||Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)|
|Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)||Paling, Wilfred||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—|
|Kirkwood, David||Parkinson, John Allen||Mr. John and Mr. G. Macdonald.|
§ 10.58 p.m.
§ Miss RATHBONE
I beg to move, in page 3, line 7, at the end, to insert:but no documents shall be destroyed before the expiration of the period within which an appeal may be lodged, and if an appeal is lodged no documents may be destroyed until after the appeal has been heard and decided.This Amendment is designed to afford yet another protection to the suspected person. In the days of the War I had many friends who were conscientious objectors, and although I did not share their views, I became the recipient of many of their experiences. I believe it was not uncommon when searches were frequent that documents were removed, and cases were known when nothing more was heard of those documents. Sometimes documents of importance were destroyed. The object of this Amendment is to make sure that the powers given to the police to destroy documents shall not be used in such a way as to interfere with the hearing of a case when an appeal is made. I do not propose to argue the matter further, and I have some reason to hope that the Attorney-General will accept the Amendment.
§ 11.0 p.m.
§ Mr. LAWSON
I hope that the Attorney-General is going to accept this Amendment. It is of considerable importance to the persons concerned.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
This is an illustration of the Amendments which I am happy' to put into the Bill. It merely embodies the practice that would be followed. I do not doubt for a moment the statement of the hon. Lady as to what happened during the War, but I should very much doubt whether under the ordinary law documents seized by the police could be destroyed except by order 320 of a magistrate. That, however, is an academic point; I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.