HC Deb 05 March 1934 vol 286 cc1609-23

7.13 p.m.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES

I beg to move, in page 3, line 9, at the end, to insert:

  1. "(2) Upon receipt of a report made under the foregoing sub-section the Board of Trade may by regulation make such provisions as they consider necessary or expedient for the purpose of fixing the prices to be charged.
  2. (3) Regulations made under this section may, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provision—
    1. (a) confer or impose on any person or body of persons such powers and duties as the Board of Trade may consider necessary or expedient for effecting the purpose aforesaid, and contain such incidental and consequential provisions as appear to the Board of Trade to be necessary or expedient for securing the effective exercise and discharge of the powers and duties of the Board, and of any powers and duties so conferred or imposed as aforesaid; and
    2. (b) provide for the trial by courts of summary jurisdiction of persons guilty of offences against the regulations, so, however, that the maximum penalty which may be inflicted for any offence against any such regulations shall be imprisonment for a term of one month, or a fine of one hundred pounds, or both such imprisonment and fine, together with the forfeiture of any articles in respect of which the offence was committed or of any profits accruing to the person committing the offence in respect of the transaction to which the offence relates, or the forfeiture of both such articles and such profits;
    • Provided that no such regulations shall alter any existing procedure in criminal cases or confer any right to punish by fine or imprisonment without trial.
  3. (4) Any regulations made under this Act shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made, and if an Address is presented to His Majesty by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the regulation may be annulled it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done there under or to the making of any new regulation."
I trust that the House will not be unduly alarmed at the length of the Amendment. Unlike other Amendments that have been moved, my Amendment does at any rate explain itself. It is culled from an Act of Parliament which was passed in this House in 1921. I hope, therefore, that the Parliamentary Secretary will not say what he said upstairs, that my Amendment was novel. When an Amendment moved in this House has already found a place in an Act of Parliament several years before, it cannot be a novel one. I shall not do what the hon. Gentleman who moved the last Amendment did: collapse in the face of the Parliamentary Secretary's statement. I was astonished at the easy way in which the hon. Gentlemen accepted the statements about their Amendment. If I had moved it, I should not have withdrawn it quite so easily. I hope now to justify my Amendment by explaining it.

The first thing I want to say is that it is put forward in all seriousness. The Parliamentary Secretary knows full well that the quarrel between the dyestuff makers and the colour-users arises in the main from the high price charged for colours. My Amendment deals specifically with those prices. I have already said that the terms of this Amendment are already to be found in an Act of Parliament. I have taken the wording from the first Section of the Foodstuffs (Prevention of Exploitation) Act, 1931, and I feel sure that the Parliamentary Secretary will be prepared to accept our Amendment provided always that he has the authority of the Import Duties Advisory Committee. Throughout these proceedings he always rests on the recommendations of that committee. In fact, to the hon. Gentleman, the recommendations of the Import Duties Advisory Committee are almost like the Sermon on the Mount to everybody else.

The provisions of this Bill have created a great deal of discussion, particularly in Lancashire and Yorkshire, because there is, in fact, a battle going on between the textile industry of Lancashire and Yorkshire on one hand and on the other hand the monopoly created by these duties in favour of Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited. That battle has now been raging for some years, and my Amendment would have the effect of satisfying the colour-users that they were not going to be exploited in future by the monopoly of the Imperial Chemical Industries. Once you put on a duty against any commodity you at once create a monopoly in your own country, and nobody will deny that in this case the monopoly of dyestuff making has gravitated largely into the hands of one firm in this country and that they have now a grip on it beyond any question whatever. We then have the problem that while the makers represented by the Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, are doing well out of the manufacture of colours, the users in Lancashire and Yorkshire are finding it hard to make ends meet. They say with a great deal of reason that if this monopoly were destroyed they would be better able to compete with foreign countries in textile goods.

These facts constitute a very strong reason for my Amendment, and if I desired another argument in its favour I would take one from the mouth of the hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury), whom I am pleased to see in his place, because I think he knows more about the details of this business than any other Member of the House of Commons. He said in Committee that there had been an increase in the price of colours manufactured in this country of 52½ per cent. in 18 months, and the colour-makers I gather apprehend that the price may be further increased. There is every reason to suppose that unless Parliament is careful we may give this dyestuff-making monopoly further power over the colour-users in connection with prices. The Board of Trade will require to be very careful as to what action they take in relation to this Conflict. I thought the Parliamentary Secretary did not give adequate reasons against a similar Amendment in Committee. This monopoly, I should say, is so powerful that they have actually established a cartel not only between this country and one or two other countries abroad, but a cartel by which they have a grip on the manufacture of these dyes almost throughout Europe.

The hon. Gentleman in his reply in Committee made an extraordinary suggestion. One does not expect much at any time from this Government by way of intelligence, but his statement on that occasion was one of the most extraordinary I have ever heard from a representative of any Government. The allegation was made by the colour-users that the monopoly created in this country in favour of the dyestuff-makers made it possible for the makers to charge higher prices in this country than they were charging to users on the Continent, for exactly the same quality of dyestuffs. The Parliamentary Secretary then turned round and said: "We can get over all that in this way. If an English firm sells the same kind of commodity abroad for a smaller price than they charge at home it should be bought back again from abroad at the lower price and used here at home." The hon. Gentleman argued that the whole thing in true capitalist style would settle itself. That is a very thin argument from one of the most intelligent representatives of this Government—though that is not saying very much for the hon. Gentleman. I think I have made out a case for this Amendment, and I shall be astonished if the Parliamentary Secretary does not receive it with open arms, caress it and put it in the Bill so that this problem of prices may be settled once for all.

7.21 p.m.

Mr. HOLDSWORTH

I trust that the Parliamentary Secretary will not accept the Amendment, which seems to me to be Socialistic in principle. While I hold that the Import Duties Advisory Committee, as far as prices of dyestuffs are concerned, are altogether wrong in what they say in their report, and are stating what is contrary to the opinions of the users of dyes, yet I would prefer the Clause in the Bill as it stands to this Amendment. Under the Bill if a complaint were laid before the committee that prices were too high, they would have power under the Import Duties Act to suggest the cancellation of this Measure, and that would be much better than referring the matter to the Board of Trade and fixing prices. My attitude all along has been that this Bill is not necessary, and that the time has passed when it would serve any useful purpose, but if the Import Duties Advisory Committee think that charges are exorbitant I would prefer that they should have power to recommend the cancellation of this Measure.

7.22 p.m.

Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY

I quite agree with all that has been said by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. R. Davies) with regard to the cartel, and it is true that prices have gone up 52½ per cent. during the last 18 months and that there would appear to be nothing to pre- vent the price being put at whatever level they please in the future. In Committee, however, the Parliamentary Secretary told us definitely that if an attempt were made to raise prices unnecessarily to the users the Government would open the floodgates and allow colours to come in free from abroad, which would eventually prevent any such action being taken by the dyestuff makers. I am willing to rest on that assurance.

7.23 p.m.

Dr. BURGIN

In order that the House may have this Amendment in its proper proportions it is necessary to give a few words of explanation. In the first place, the Dyestuffs Act is an Act establishing a prohibition, and the way in which that prohibition is operating is rather in the nature of a sluice gate. The prohibition can be made complete, it can be made partial or it can be removed altogether. The Board of Trade has the power by licence to authorise the importation of what would otherwise be prohibited so that the Board of Trade has the power to check the operation of the prohibition by enlarging the aperture through which goods may come. In this Bill power is taken to deal with complaints by consumers. One of the matters inquired into by the Import Duties Advisory Committee was, "Should this Act, originally intended for a duration of 10 years but extended year by year for a certain period he made permanent?" They said, "Yes, we think it should, but there are certain anxieties on the part of users as to whether or not they might be exploited." So the committee, in paragraph 20 of their report, said: If some provision could be made for complaints by any responsible body of consumers as to exploitation and if these could be addressed to an independent authority who would have the power of investigation we think the matter would largely be met. Accordingly there is a provision in the Bill that if a representation is made to the committee by any body appearing to be representative of substantial consumers that there has been exploitation then the committee shall make a report to the Board of Trade. Now along comes the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. R. Davies) and says, "I prescribe what the Board of Trade shall do when they get the report. I will say exactly what they are to do. I will assume that the report is going to be about prices." But that is a grotesque assumption. The report might not have anything to do with prices. It might deal with quality, or conditions attached to delivery, or a thousand and one things other than price. I entirely decline as the representative of the Board of Trade, which has power to deal with this report, to have that power limited, to have my wings clipped as it were, and to be told that I am to be bound by something taken out of a Foodstuffs Act of 1921. In the case of foodstuffs very different arguments might apply. There is no cartel in the supply of foodstuffs. There is no question of foodstuffs being supplied by the same supplier at different prices in different areas, or, if so, there are methods of dealing with it.

This is an attempt by the hon. Member to give to the Board of Trade additional powers but the Board of Trade say, "Thank you very much, but we do not want to be given powers which in one sense are more than we ask for and in another sense are unduly limiting and restrictive in their effect." It is much better that the Board of Trade should see the report before it determines what is the most appropriate remedy for the evils which are brought to its attention. It is impossible in advance to define the high-water mark, to indicate a point and to say, "This far shall thy powers go but no further." We believe it would be better statesmanship to leave it to the Board of Trade to forge the weapon for bringing about satisfaction if exploitation of the consumer has been proved. I again call the attention of the House to the fact that if a complaint has anything to do with withholding supplies, with imposing conditions, or with excessive price, one of the most effective methods of dealing with it is to remove the prohibition at once on all these goods, and allow dyestuffs to come in if necessary from the United States or even—what would be an anathema to some hon. Members—from Japan. Do not let me be misunderstood. There are dyestuff works of considerable size in those countries, and at present there is very little sale in this country of dyestuffs made in those countries because of our own production. It is precisely because we are facilitating the increase in that production that the risk is less, but, if a cartel or any other body is to impose conditions which amount to an exploitation of the consumer, then the Board of Trade have powers which are adequate to deal with that situation. This is an attempt, I have no doubt well meant and honest, to assist the Government, but we consider that we

have wider powers without accepting this Amendment, and I must ask the House, therefore, to resist it.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 27; Noes, 222.

Division No. 140.] AYES. [7.31 p.m.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Attlee, Clement Richard Jenkins, Sir William Thorne, William James
Banfield, John William Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Cripps, Sir Stafford Kirkwood, David Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah
Dagger, George Lunn, William Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) McEntee, Valentine L. Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Wilmot, John
Edwards, Charles Mainwaring, William Henry
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur Milner, Major James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Parkinson, John Allen Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Mabane, William
Albery, Irving James Elmley, Viscount MacAndrew, Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick)
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Emmott, Charles E. G. C. MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) Emrys-Evans, P. V. MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Entwistle, Cyril Fullard MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Fleming, Edward Lasceiles McKie, John Hamilton
Apsley, Lord Foot, Dingle (Dundee) McLean, Major Sir Alan
Aske, Sir Robert William Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Macquisten, Frederick Alexander
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe Ford, Sir Patrick J. Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. Fox, Sir Gifford Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Glossop, C. W. H. Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)
Balniel, Lord Gluckstein, Louis Halle Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Goldie, Noel B. Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gower, Sir Robert Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Beit, Sir Alfred L. Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Blindell, James Greene, William P. C. Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Borodale, Viscount Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Morgan, Robert H.
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morrison, William Shepherd
Bracken, Brendan Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) Moss, Captain H. J.
Broadbent, Colonel John Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Harbord, Arthur Munro, Patrick
Burghley, Lord Hartland, George A. Nall, Sir Joseph
Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Burnett, John George Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) North, Edward T.
Burton, Colonel Henry Walter Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Nunn, William
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) O'Connor, Terence James
Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Holdsworth, Herbert Peake, Captain Osbert
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Hume. Sir George Hopwood Peat, Charles U.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Penny, Sir George
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (P'rtsm'th, S.) Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Petherick, M.
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Clarry, Reginald George James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Blist'n)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jesson, Major Thomas E. Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Procter, Major Henry Adam
Conant, R. J. E. Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Cook, Thomas A. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Cooke, Douglas Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Ramsbotham, Herwald
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. Kerr, Hamilton W. Rawson, Sir Cooper
Craven-Ellis, William Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Rea, Walter Russell
Crooke, J. Smedley Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.) Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Leckie, J. A. Reid, David D. (County Down)
Culverwell, Cyril Tom Leech, Dr. J. W. Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Remer, John R.
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Levy, Thomas Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Lewis, Oswald Rickards, George William
Dawson, Sir Philip Lindsay, Noel Ker Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Donner, P. W. Llewellin, Major John J. Ropner, Colonel L.
Doran, Edward Lloyd, Geoffrey Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Drewe, Cedric Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Duckworth, George A. V. Loder, Captain J. de Vere Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lyons, Abraham Montagu Runge, North Cecil
Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. Turton, Robert Hugh
Salt, Edward W. Spencer, Captain Richard A. Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Stones, James Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour-
Savery, Samuel Servington Storey, Samuel Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Strauss, Edward A. Whyte, Jardine Bell
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Strickland, Captain W. F. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F. Wise, Alfred R.
Simmonds, Oliver Edwin Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart Withers, Sir John James
Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness) Tate, Mavis Constance Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.) Worthington, Dr. John V.
Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Somerset, Thomas Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Train, John Captain Austin Hudson and Mr. Womersley.
Soper, Richard Tree, Ronald
Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY

May I ask, with regard to Clause 2, paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), if these colours will be put on the free list and not be subject to prohibitions?

7.40 p.m.

Dr. BURGIN

I hope the House will now give us the Third Reading of this Bill. The matter has been very much before the House of recent years, and it cannot be pretended that there is any case for the dyestuff industry which has not been fully represented in Debate, nor any question arising from it which has not been fully and freely ventilated in this House and in Committee upstairs. The hon. and gallant Member for West Salford (Lieut.-Commander Astbury) asks a question with regard to certain intermediate colours. The answer is that steps have already been taken, by way of an application by the Colour Users' Association to the Import Duties Advisory Committee, for the transfer of these materials to the free list, and that application was published on the 14th February. In that notice it was stated that any representations with regard to the application could be made to the Committee not later than the 1st March. Therefore, my hon. and gallant Friend will see that the intermediate colours, including the particular naphthols which were the subject matter of an Amendment which he moved in Committee upstairs, are before the Import Duties Advisory Committee for transfer to the free list, and the matter is, of course, under that Committee's jurisdiction.

The Bill follows the recommendations of the Import Duties Advisory Committee and has been drafted to give effect to those recommendations. Unless there are any questions which any hon. Member desires to raise, I would refer to the points that have been discussed at length, as hon. Members who were Members of the Committee will recollect, on the various Amendments that were before that Committee.

7.42 p.m.

Mr. RHYS DAVIES

I do not intend to detain the House for more than a few minutes, but we on this side intend to be consistent. I hope to prove that we are consistent. I ought to say that this Measure in the first instance was a temporary Measure. In the original Dyestuffs Act it was stipulated definitely that it should only last for 10 years. It was never intended to prevail as an Act of Parliament except to help the dye-making industry to establish itself in this country. We on this side claim that the dyestuff making industry has established itself long ago. In fact, it has established itself in such a way as to create a monopoly, and by creating a monopoly under cover of the prohibition of dyestuffs from abroad, it has increased the prices to the colour users of this country out of all proportion. That, in short, is our opposition to the present Bill.

In Committee upstairs we had a representative of the War Office present. That was rather ominous. He represented the War Office on this assumption, I presume, that the dye-making industry is essential for the purpose of providing the Service Departments with stuff for ammunition. The colour users, therefore, are right in saying that they have been exploited by two elements. First of all, the Government want the dye-making industry to maintain itself in an efficient position in order that the Service Departments may always be certain of the necessary ammunition in case of trouble with some other country. On the other hand, the Imperial Chemical Industries, Limited, have without a doubt established a monopoly behind this prohibition, and there is also no doubt that that monopoly is operating unfairly to the colour users of Lancashire and Yorkshire. For these reasons, we intend to vote against the Third Reading of the Bill.

7.44 p.m.

Mr. HOLDSWORTH

I think it ought to be known to the House that all the bodies representing the consumers of dyestuffs are opposed to this Bill. They are simply accepting it as inevitable, but they will watch that the provisions which defend the interests of the consumers are fully carried out. I do not say this in any way as a threat, but the Government can expect serious trouble if the consumers' interests, particularly in the textile industry for which I am speaking, are not watched. I want to say a word or two about the question of intermediates, in regard to which there is a tremendous grievance. We cannot see why an intermediate coming into this country to be used as a dyestuff should be subject to a duty whereas the dyestuff can come in free. Surely the licence ought to be issued for one of two things, either that it is not manufactured in this country or is manufactured at such a price as to make it prohibitive. I trust that when the Bill becomes an Act the interests of the consumers of dyestuffs will be looked after as much as the interests of those who produce dyestuffs. I have made several long speeches on this subject and have opposed the Bill from beginning to end. I intend to join my friends above the Gangway in opposition to it, but I hope that if it goes through it will be worked in the true interests of both sections of the industry.

7.46 p.m.

Mr. REMER

I am authorised to speak on behalf of those of us on this side of the House who opposed this Bill on Second Reading, and went into the Opposition Lobby. The House will understand that this is very difficult legislation by reference, and it is hard to understand exactly what the powers of the Board of Trade are. It came out in the explanations in Committee and in the explanation of the Parliamentry Secretary of the Board of Trade to-night that the Board of Trade have all the power not merely to put these dyestuffs on the Free List, but to take action on one of a number of grounds, not the least of which is the ground of price. There are other matters of even more vital importance, and we are completely satisfied that the Board of Trade have now all the powers about which we were anxious. I can say to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary that that enables us to put Parliamentary questions to him, which we shall not hesitate to do if we find the Department is not dealing with the complaints of our constituents as we think that they ought to do. We have no doubt that we shall receive courteous attention to these questions as we always do. Therefore, while we voted against the Bill on Second Reading, it is not our intention to go into the Lobby to-night against the Government.

7.48 p.m.

Mr. A. C. REED

I would not have ventured to intervene but for a remark of my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth). He said that there was not a colour user who was not against the Bill. I happen to be in an industry which is a large user of colours. I have been for the past 30 years a very large user of colour, and when I remembered the conditions of the dye industry before the War and the steps which have been taken since to build up the industry, and when I remembered further the care and attention which has been given to the building up of that industry and the success which has been achieved, I as a colour user was delighted when this Bill was introduced to protect the industry. I speak as a user who has had the most courteous support from the dye industry. Incidentally, it is not the monopoly of the one firm. There are many other dye makers.

Mr. HOLDSWORTH

The words I used, I think, were, "no organised body of colour users."

Mr. REED

I am speaking for the paper industry and they are not in any shape or form against the Bill, although, according to the hon. Member for South Bradford, it will be injurious to their business. We have found it a tremendous benefit. I would like the House to know that we have not in our own mills found it necessary to buy one ounce of colour outside Great Britain since the War. That has been the result of the Government's policy, and I cordially support the Bill and hope it will have a big majority on Third Reading.

7.50 p.m.

Lieut.-Commander ASTBURY

May I put myself right with the House? The hon. Member has put forward an argument for the paper industry. I have been arguing from the point of view of the

textile industry. I know that the paper industry can get all the colours it wants because the colours they use are totally different from those used in the textile industry, and are in the majority of cases inferior.

Mr. REED

The hon. and gallant Gentleman is incorrect. The dyes we use in the paper industry are most of them identical with those used in the textile industry.

Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

The House divided: Ayes, 193; Noes, 38.

Division No. 141.] AYES. [7.51 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Nunn, William
Albery, Irving James Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Peake, Captain Osbert
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) Harbord, Arthur Penny, Sir George
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Petherick, M.
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Aske, Sir Robert William Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Blist'n)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsf'd) Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Procter, Major Henry Adam
Balniel, Lord Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Hume, Sir George Hopwood Ramsbotham, Herwald
Belt, Sir Alfred L. Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Rawson, Sir Cooper
Blindell, James Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Borodale, Viscount James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Reid, David D. (County Down)
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Jesson, Major Thomas E. Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Broadbent, Colonel John Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Rickards, George William
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Ropner, Colonel L.
Burghley, Lord Kerr, Hamilton W. Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Burnett, John George Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.) Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Leckle, J. A. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Campbell, Vice-Admiral G. (Burnley) Leech, Dr. J. W. Runge, Norah Cecil
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Leighton, Major B. E. P. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Levy, Thomas Salt, Edward W.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Lewis, Oswald Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham)
Cayzer, Maj. Sir H. R. (Prtsmth., S.) Lindsay, Noel Ker Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Llewellin, Major John J. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Clarry, Reginald George Lloyd, Geoffrey Savery, Samuel Servington
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Conant, R. J. E. Lyons, Abraham Montagu Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)
Cook, Thomas A. Mabane, William Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.
Craven-Ellis, William MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G. (Partick) Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Crooke, J. Smedley MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Croom-Johnson, R. P. MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Culverwell, Cyril Tom McKie, John Hamilton Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) McLean, Major Sir Alan Somerset, Thomas
Dawson, Sir Philip Macquisten, Frederick Alexander Somerville, Annesley A (Windsor)
Donner, P. W. Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Doran, Edward Manningham-Buffer, Lt.-Col. Sir M. Soper, Richard
Drewe, Cedric Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Duckworth, George A. V. Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Elmley, Viscount Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Stanley, Hon. O. F C. (Westmorland)
Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale Stones, James
Fox, Sir Gifford Morgan, Robert H. Storey, Samuel
Gillett, Sir George Masterman Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.) Strauss, Edward A.
Glossop, C. W. H. Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Strickland, Captain W. F.
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Morrison, William Shephard Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Goldie, Noel B. Moss, Captain H. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir Murray F.
Gower, Sir Robert Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.) Munro, Patrick Tate, Mavis Constance
Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Nall, Sir Joseph Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (P'dd'gt'n, S.)
Greene, William P. C. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. Withers, Sir John James
Train, John Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour. Worthington, Dr. John V.
Tree, Ronald Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. Whyte, Jardine Bell TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Turton, Robert Hugh Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) Mr. Womersley and Major George Davies.
Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) Wise, Alfred R.
NOES.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Rea, Walter Russell
Attlee, Clement Richard Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Banfield, John William Holdsworth, Herbert Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jenkins, Sir William Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Daggar, George Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Thorne, William James
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kirkwood, David Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Joslah
Edwards, Charles Lunn, William Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) McEntee, Valentine L. Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) Mainwaring, William Henry
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Milner, Major James Mr. G. Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W). Parkinson, John Allen

Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

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