CLAUSE 1.—(General speed limit of thirty miles per hour in built-up areas.) (Hansard, 28 June 1934)

Mr. STANLEY
I beg to move, in page 3, line 14, to leave out Sub-section (7), and to insert: (7) It shall be the duty of the local authority—

(a) to erect and maintain traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite in order to give effect to general or other directions given by the Minister for the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to the places where a length of road begins, and ceases, to be a road in a built-up area, or as to a direction being in force as respects a length of road that it shall be deemed to be, or not to be a road in a built-up area; and

(b) to alter or remove traffic signs as may be requisite in order to give effect to such directions as aforesaid, either in consequence of the making of an order by the Minister under Sub-section (5) of this Section or otherwise;
and if the local authority make default in executing any works required for the performance of the duty imposed upon them by this Sub-section, the Minister may himself execute the works and recover summarily as a civil debt from the local authority the expenses incurred by him in so doing. (8) The power conferred on the Minister by Sub-section (2) of Section forty-eight of the principal Act to prescribe the size, colour, and type of traffic signs shall include power to make regulations providing for the illumination during hours of darkness during which a speed limit is to be observed under this Section of traffic signs to be erected under this Section, or for the attachment of reflectors thereto. This places upon local authorities the duty of erecting certain signs in accordance with directions given by the Minister of Transport. This power is drawn in the widest possible terms because it is essen- 1319 tial that we should have a free hand to decide from experience what are the most suitable signs to erect under given conditions. It is only necessary for me to emphasise the changes which have been made from the original scheme. The original scheme of Clause 1 was that any area where a lighting system is provided shall be considered a built-up area but while the bulk of built-up areas will coincide with that definition there are a number of marginal cases which will be excluded which ought to be included, and a number of areas which ought to be included which will be left out. Therefore, machinery is provided for treating as built-up areas some portions of road on which lighting is not provided and for treating as not built-up areas some portions of road upon which there is street lighting. It was the intention that these exceptions, whether they are of the character of inclusions or exclusions, should be separately and definitely marked, and power to do so was taken in the Bill as originally drafted.
Several hon. Members during the passage of the Clause through Committee drew attention to the difficulty which motorists might experience upon entering a built-up area in seeing a system of lighting which would be a warning to them that a speed limit was in force in that area. I think it is the general desire of all hon. Members, whether they think that a speed limit is going to be effective in reducing the number of accidents or not, that at any rate it should have a fair trial and it is obvious that it will not receive a fair trial unless proper warning is given to the motorist and a proper opportunity of observing the law is afforded to him. Nothing could be more unfortunate than that the people who desire to give this experiment a chance and to observe the provisions of the Act passed by Parliament, should fail to do so because of any obscurity.
I frankly confess that as a result of the discussion in Committee I have come to the conclusion that these warning signs will have to be erected on a much greater scale than I had originally contemplated. I think hon. Members will agree that it is necessary to leave the powers wide and not to define too strictly the actual methods of sign posting to be used. It is, of course, first of all necessary for me to consult, as I am doing, the various 1320 highway authorities to get their opinions upon it. I shall also want to learn at subsequent stages the views of those most directly concerned, namely, the motoring organisations. I think it will interest the Committee if I read to them the relevant passages from a letter which I have addressed to the highway authorities: It will be appreciated that the Bill is still before Parliament and that the proposals it contains in regard to a speed limit, as well as the detailed provisions for giving effect to those proposals, are, therefore, subject to further decision. But on the assumption that arrangements have to be made on the lines suggested in paragraph 2 of this letter"— that is, on the lines now outlined in the Bill— the Minister contemplates issuing a direction that the sign shown in diagram I shall be erected at such places on every 'restricted' length of road that they will be clearly visible to drivers entering the length of road at any point of entry from—

(a) any adjacent length of the same road;

(b) any de-restricted road; or

(c) any unrestricted road other than an unclassified road which the local authority is satisfied is unlikely to be used to any substantial extent by traffic other than purely local traffic. The possible scope of these exceptions is a matter on which the Minister will particularly welcome the views of the local authorities."
The effect of that is that in areas subject to the speed limit control warning signs will be erected upon every road, except those which the highway authorities and I agree are roads unlikely to be used to any substantial extent by traffic other than purely local traffic. We do not wish to extend the system of sign-posting beyond the immediate necessity. I am sure we can all think of a number of little lanes leading into villages or towns where the erection of such sign-posts would be unnecessary, but hon. Members may take my assurance that on any road which is substantially used by motorists and where there is a real risk of the motorist not knowing that he is about to enter an area subject to the speed limit, he will not have to rely merely upon seeing that there is a system of lighting, but will be assisted by some special sign which will leave him in no doubt.

§ Sir PERCY HARRIS
The provision of these signs may occasion considerable cost to the authorities. Will there be any 1321 grant for this purpose out of the Road Fund?

Mr. STANLEY
Any signs erected under this Clause will be subject to the same rate of grant as that which applies to signs of this character which are erected now. I may say with reference to the Amendment in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Battersea (Commander Marsden) which proposes, after the word "signs" in line 2 of my Amendment, to insert: and to place traffic signs on the surface of the carriageway. that I have included in this letter to the local authorities the following words: I am to add that in prescribing these signs the Minister would wish to leave open for further consideration the possible alternative of prescribed markings in the bed of the carriageway itself. I do not wish to anticipate discussion on an individual Amendment, but I realise the possibility of the most suitable kind of sign being found to be a marking upon the surface of the carriageway. It is true that the Departmental Committee which dealt with these signs, and which reported about a year ago, was adverse to them, but I am asking the opinion of the local authorities, and I shall ask the opinion of the motoring organisations, upon this possibility. I hope that hon. Members who formed part of the Committee upstairs and who recollect our discussions upon this matter and the pledge which I gave then, will feel that in the Amendment now moved by me I am fully carrying out my undertaking, and will take my assurance that it is the intention that in future, under this scheme, the motorist should be given due warning of entry into a built-up area at all places where confusion would otherwise be likely to arise.

§ Captain Sir WILLIAM BRASS
I am sure that all of us who were in the Standing Committee upstairs are grateful to the Minister for implementing his promise to put down this Amendment, but I should like to ask whether the Amendments to this proposed Amendment, 1322 standing in my name, to leave out certain words and to insert others, are to be called. If so, I do not propose to comment now on the remarks of the Minister.

§ The CHAIRMAN
As at present advised, I propose to call the Amendments to this proposed Amendment standing in the name of the hon. and gallant Member. I do not see that they are out of order, but I cannot make a definite pledge in advance.

§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON
I am glad that the Minister has moved this Amendment, because it obviates the difficulty in which we found ourselves in the original Bill of driving along and looking at the sky when trying to avoid people on the road, but I hope he will also make it clear, not only when we come into the speed limit area, but when we go out of it. It has been very difficult, with some knowledge of the old speed limit, to know when you were out of it, and I hope that, just as we are to be told when we are going in, so we shall be told when we go out. I also want to ask if the Minister has given up all idea of putting into force other speed limits under the old Act. The Committee will be aware of the fact that the Minister has power at present to prescribe any speed limit he likes on application from a local authority, and I want to know whether this 30 miles an hour speed limit is to be the minimum, and the only minimum, throughout the country, because it may well occur that some towns within the 30-mile speed limit will ask for a lower speed limit still, and then what sort of signs shall we have; or is it the intention of the Minister to say that from henceforth he has given up all idea of a lower speed limit than 30 miles an hour in dense areas? The 30-mile limit is absurd. It is either far too fast in the dense areas or far too slow in other areas.

Mr. STANLEY
On a point of Order. Shall I be entitled on this Amendment, which deals only with signposts, to reply to any remarks on the speed limit as a whole?

§ The CHAIRMAN
There are certain references to particular matters which I 1323 cannot say are out of order, but a discussion on these matters may be out of order.

§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON
I thought I did very well considering, but I would ask whether, within the 30 miles area, there will be another sign of the same type and the possibility of a reduced speed again.

§ Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE
We do not yet know what the signs are going to be, but I can imagine that a sign might be put up, either by a local authority or on private land, which would be obscure by night. Has the Minister power to arrange for these signs to be removed?

§ Mr. ISAAC FOOT
Following on what was said by the hon. and gallant Member for Wallasey (Lieut.-Colonel Moore-Brabazon) as to a variation in the speed limit, and assuming that there is a 30-mile limit, which may extend over very many miles—in some cases, I suppose, for scores of miles, if one is going, for instance, through Warrington up towards Lancaster, where it is almost impossible for a very long time to get out of the lit-up area—obviously within the limits of ingress and egress there would be some parts where a lower limit might well be established. I am concerned with the villages, where the houses may allow for a very narrow road and where there is continual anxiety because of the danger to children, and I assume that a motorist will know that, although he enters upon a 30 miles an hour area, nevertheless there may be established, in special areas of exceptional danger inside such an area, a speed limit in which there is collaboration between the Ministry of Transport and the local authority. I hope that motorists will not assume that 30 miles an hour is the limit generally allowed as soon as they get into a lit-up area. I hope there will be further activity on the part of those who have immediate knowledge of local conditions for the establishment, it may be, of a limit of no more than 10 miles an hour through some of the exceptionally dangerous parts of the country. One would assume that there must be in a local area a local limit established.

§ Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON
On a point of Order. Is not the hon. Member committing the same fault that I was? Is not this Clause merely a matter of signposts?

§ The CHAIRMAN
I think it is clear where the limit of relevance comes. Discussion of the merits or otherwise of the 30 miles an hour limit or some other speed limit generally would, I think, be beyond the provisions of this Amendment, but the question of signs, where some different speed limit might be imposed, is within the provisions of the Amendment.

§ Mr. ISAAC FOOT
The question was put at the outset of his speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Wallasey whether there would be other limits, and, therefore, I expressed the hope that there would be a limit within a limit, and I assume that every motorist would respect that, but I do not think there can be any real difficulty upon that point. There will be a sign which will be clearly common throughout the country, and I contemplate that under this Clause a motorist using the roads in any part of the country would look out for the sign indicating that he was in a lit-up area. Then there will be local signs, which will be distinctive, showing that he has come into a more dangerous area, and I do not think there need be any apprehension on the part of those who have the privilege of using the roads of the country, a privilege which is always subservient to the rights of the unfortunate pedestrian.

§ Sir GIFFORD FOX
Can the Minister give us an assurance that the great change which this new Amendment makes is that no longer will the motorist have to watch out for street lights or lamps at the tops of poles or houses, but that we are going back to the old system and that wherever a motorist must drive 30 miles an hour, he will pass into an area marked by some form of signpost and will not be worried at all with the problem of looking for the lights that he ought to be watching.

§ Mrs. TATE
Seeing that the Minister has brought forward this Amendment, would it not have been better to have done what many of us wished in the first place, that is, to do away with the definition "built-up area" altogether, and 1325 simply have, where necessary, in a congested area, one sign fixing a speed limit suitable to that particular area? From the beginning the definition "built-up area" has caused nothing but confusion, and I would suggest—

§ The CHAIRMAN
We have got beyond the question of the built-up area.

§ Mrs. TATE
I bow to your Ruling, Sir-Dennis.

§ Mr. SUMMERSBY
The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) referred to the question of having signs indicating a lower speed limit—

Mr. STANLEY
Ample opportunity will be given to discuss that question when we get to the point on the Report stage.

§ Mr. SUMMERSBY
If we are really going to make it confusing to the motorist and wish to drive him mad, why not print a notice in some foreign language that the ordinary motorist cannot read?

§ Sir CHARLES OMAN
This Amendment, I think, raises the whole question of restrictions to be placed on the motoring fraternity. Would it not be possible to make still further restrictions, as the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Isaac Foot) said—

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member is not using the right opportunity for his remarks. This particular Amendment does not deal with restrictions, but only with the signs to be put up where those restrictions are ordered.

§ Sir C. OMAN
I must apologise to the Committee, but the greater part of the speeches which have been made were not about signs.

§ Mr. ALED ROBERTS
May I ask the Minister if he will clear up one or two points? I have a distinct recollection of making a suggestion in Committee up-stairs during the discussion on sign posts and the definition of "built-up area," and I remember that the Minister turned down the suggestion I made, because he said it would be very confusing if you used too many signs. He gave the classic example of the Great West Road, where there is a broad road which might, pos- 1326 sibly, be taken out of the limit area and the old road running by the side, which would be subject to the limit. Nothing is said in the Minister's Amendment as to what is to happen if a motorist comes on to a road which has been taken out of the speed limit area. It only says that signs are to be put up to indicate the beginning of a road in a built-up area, and where it ceases. It does not say anything about a road which joins a controlled road somewhere between the beginning and the end. I should like to know what the hon. Gentleman has in his mind to deal with that point.

§ Lieut.-Commander AGNEW
There is one question about which I am not quite clear, and that is where, under the Amendment, the motorist need not take any notice at all of the street lamps but may solely observe the special signs which are proposed?

Mr. STANLEY
If I may reply to the last question first, the position—and it is one which I made perfectly clear in Committee when I promised that I would introduce this Amendment—is that the legal liability remains unchanged. The legal liability is still governed by the fact that where a system of street lighting exists, a speed limit is in force. What I am now proposing to do in all cases where confusion is likely to occur is to take powers to erect, for the guidance of motorists at the beginning of a speed limit area, a sign which will show that a speed limit is in force, and my answer to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. A. Roberts) is what I have just said. It will not be possible now for the motorist, when he gets into the middle of London, to say, "I did not know I was in a built-up area," because, by using a number of by-lanes entering London, he finds no sign showing that the speed limit is in force. I think that if my hon. Friend had listened to the extract which I read from a letter to the local authorities, he would realise that I had in my mind the position of the man who enters from a side road, and that it will be an obligation to put up a sign in order that the motorist may be aware of the fact that the speed limit is in force.
The only other question, I think, that I was asked, was as to the position under Section 46 of the Act of 1930. That of 1327 course, is entirely unchanged by this Bill. The Section still remains in force. It will still be open to the local authority to make an application, if it so desires, for a special speed limit, and it will still be open to the Minister of Transport, if he thinks fit, to grant it. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend there is no intention of putting up the same sign to tell the motorist in one place that he must not exceed 30 miles an hour, and at another place that he must not exceed 10 miles an hour.

§ Sir W. BRASS
Assuming that someone came into the London area by a side lane, as the Minister described it, and was not, in fact, in the 30-mile limit, what would happen to him there? He would not know that he was in an area exempted from a speed limit, because he would see the street lamps.

Mr. STANLEY
I did not deal with that point, because I made it plain or. Second Reading, and several times since, and it is actually a point which is raised by a subsequent Amendment in the name of my hon. and gallant Friend. The position which I made very plain is that in the de-restricted areas, where a sign will be placed upon the lamps, which, after all, will show that it is not subject to the speed limit, these signs will not only be placed at the beginning and end of an area, but at regular intervals along the whole area.

§ Mr. MABANE
Will the Minister answer the point raised by my hon. and gallant Friend?

Mr. STANLEY
It was a question about the removing of signs. I have already that power under the Road Traffic Act, 1930.

§ Mr. REMER
What the hon. Gentleman has just said has filled me with a great deal of misgiving. My object in rising is to ask one question. The Minister has referred to a motorist coming from a by-lane on to a lit-up area. May I ask him whether in such circumstances there is to be no sign on that by-lane similar to the sign on a main road with a speed limit? Will there be any sign to give a motorist, say, a stranger, entering London any guidance that he is approaching a speed limit?

Mr. STANLEY
My answer to that is that a stranger to London is unlikely to approach London by an unclassified road. The whole point I shall discuss with local authorities with the object of ensuring that any road likely to be used by motorists who are strangers to a district shall have this sign upon them.

§ Mr. PIKE
Does this apply to other big towns?

§ Sir W. BRASS
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, after "maintain," to insert "prescribed."
The object of this Amendment to the proposed Amendment will, I think, be clear to the Committee. It is in order that before my hon. Friend puts up particular types of signs, they should be prescribed signs, and that the House of Commons should have an opportunity, if necessary, of discussing the sort of signs which should or should not be used We had a discussion last night on the question of pedestrian crossing places, and that was due to the fact that the Minister had to place on the Table of the House the Regulations as to crossing places. I think that the House should also have the opportunity of knowing the sort of signs which are to be put up by the Minister. It is very important that these signs should be uniform, land that we should not have in this country signs like other signs in foreign countries which may mean something entirely different from what we intend them to mean here. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether he could not accept this Amendment to his Amendment, and agree that the design of the signs should be laid on the Table for discussion when he brings in the Regulations.

Mr. STANLEY
I am afraid that, until my hon. and gallant Friend moved his Amendment, I did not quite appreciate the object he had in mind. I thought that all he wanted to ensure was that signs erected by the local authority would proceed by prior sanction. I have already that power under another Act. I appreciate the point he has made, however, but I hope that he will not press me to accept the Amendment now. I agree that a certain amount of publicity given to this matter may, in some, instances, 1329 be extremely valuable, and I will certainly between now and the stage in another place look into the matter, now that I know the exact point he has in mind, and will do my best to meet it.

§ Mr. McENTEE
I should like to raise a point on the Amendment to the Minister's Amendment—

§ The CHAIRMAN;
We are not discussing the Minister's Amendment, but the Amendment to the Amendment.

§ Mr. McENTEE
That is exactly what I said.

§ The CHAIRMAN
That might have been what the hon. Member meant, but I understood him to say the Minister's Amendment. We are discussing the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass).

§ Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS
I am sitting in front of the hon. Member, and what he said was, "on the Amendment to the Minister's Amendment."

§ The CHAIRMAN
That is all right as long as the hon. Member knows what I mean.

§ Mr. McENTEE
Sometimes a person not playing the game sees the game best. I do not claim to be a motorist. I tried to drive on one occasion and knocked a tree down. As one who desires to be a motorist I keep my eyes open to see what it is the motorist has to observe on the roads. The thing that strikes me is the absence of similarity in the signs all over the country and the different heights at which they are placed. I notice also that in many cases, owing to trees and other obstructions, it is impossible to see the signs properly. I want to ask the Minister to see that these signs are similar in every district instead of having all kinds of signs to indicate the same thing. If that were done it would save many casualties.

Mr. STANLEY
I do not think that the Amendment to the proposed Amendment would have very much bearing on that question, but I fully realise the importance of the hon. Member's point. As a matter of fact, as the result of a committee which reported last year and regulations which I issued in consequence, uniformity of signs is ensured 1330 in future throughout the country. The signs erected under these powers will be no exception to the uniformity.

§ Sir W. BRASS
In view of the undertaking which the Minister has been so kind as to give, I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

§ Commander MARSDEN
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, after "signs," to insert: and to place traffic signs on the surface of the carriage way. The Minister has been kind enough to say he has sympathetically considered this proposal and opinions have already been expressed in the House as to signs generally, so that I feel I have a pretty good Amendment. These words are very few, but they may revolutionise the whole of this question. The place for the eyes of the motorist is on the surface of the road, and he cannot fail to see signs placed there. If he is stopped by a policeman, he cannot give any possible excuse that he has not seen them. I am a practical motorist, which I understand the Minister is not. I drive home every day from the House; I am continually on the road, and I know that there is nothing on the road which will miss me in the shape of some sign on the carriageway. I emphasise "carriageway" because "road" means in the legal sense the whole space from side to side, from hedge to hedge, including the pavement. Something on the carriageway means something on the actual surface of the road, as generally understood by the layman. There need not be an enormous number or variety of signs. They might be a few which every motorist who is competent to pass the test which will be imposed should be able to distinguish immediately. They should be signs to which his mind and eye would instantly react as he sees them. These are the feelings of everyone who drives a car. Less and less do we wish to take our eyes off the road. We want to keep them on the road. There are many ramifications of this question, and I know many hon. Members cleverer than I am who can probably think of some more. My first draft of the Amendment was to 1331 make it compulsory to have these road signs continually on the road where a speed limit was in force, but I am glad to see that the Minister in his Amendment apparently has this power if he wishes to enforce it. There are the words: such positions as may be requisite in order to give effect to general or other directions given by the Minister. "As requisite" are as handy a couple of words as I have ever met, and they can be twisted to suit anything. There are in the whole country only 50,000 miles of motoring roads, and some sign could be given to apply to the whole of the roads of the country. We are not asking that. We are asking that some signs should be given for sections of the roads over which there is a speed limit. We may have different signs for 30 miles, 20 miles, or 15 miles, but the point is that when the motorist gets to that point in the road and sees markings in the carriageway he knows where he is, and there is no excuse if he does not obey them. They may be used also in other places. They may be used at the approaches of cross roads, or near isolated dwellings where it was advisable for the careful motorist to ease down. They might also be used as temporary measures where there is a gathering of people and where the police would like some restriction of speed; and they could be eliminated next day after the meeting had taken place.
There is no end to the uses to which these signs could be put, and they could be of paint or metal, and I understand there is now a rubber sign which can be put in the road. On the West Road they are always laboriously struggling along with a wooden stencil which they move from one spot to the other. I am sure it must be only a question of time before something is invented to mark the roads in the way that tennis courts are marked, by which a motor cycle or tri-car could go along and put down mile after mile of these markings without any delay. At present we cannot go along the West Road without being stopped somewhere. I do not say that these signs should be overdone. I hope the question of cost will not deter the Minister from adopting such signs as I suggest. The motorists will pay far less for their cars than ever before 1332 in Horse-power Tax as a result of the Budget, and I do not think anyone would grudge giving some of that back for this purpose.
The sole purpose for which this Bill is introduced is to save human life. Seven thousand people are killed and 200,000 injured every year, and I hope that no hon. Member will object to auy such suggestion as is made on the question of cost. When I was a midshipman, and we went in for our seamanship examination, the chances of passing depended on your knowing of the mentality of the board. One captain always used to ask the question, "What is the most valuable thing on a ship?" If you did not answer that correctly you could not pass. The answer was "Human life." I hope that the Minister will view my suggestion from the same point of view. The markings as proposed in the Bill can be anything the Minister cares to make them. If the words of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment are put in it will not be left to the Minister to try a slight experiment or anything of that kind. It will be an instruction from this House that it shall be done. It will be an instruction that it shall be done at all places where a speed limit is in force.

§ Sir G. FOX
I should like to support the Amendment to the Amendment. We have all seen the new signs which have been put on the roads in London for pedestrian crossings, and we realise how very easy it is to see them. Whether they are in the right places or not is another question, but we know when we get up to them that they are signs and it is quite easy to understand them. If we could have signs on the carriageways in the villages throughout the country they would be easy for the motorist and better than disfiguring pretty villages with ugly signposts. On the big by-passes and arterial roads where there is a lot of traffic, perhaps two or three deep, many motorists who are overtaking or in the centre of the road cannot see signposts on the sides of the road. If the signs were on the carriageway all motorists could see them and understand exactly what they mean. I hope the Minister will give this suggestion careful consideration when he comes to make the necessary regulations.

§ Captain GUNSTON
I hope the Minister will not accept the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, because there is a real danger, if the Minister follows the advice of my hon. Friends, of turning motoring into a sort of game of chess. With all these devices on our roads motoring will be made too complicated, and I can hardly imagine my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass) will approve of this Amendment after his speech last night, when he asked the Minister to do away with some of the curious patterns he is marking on the streets of London. Surely the right thing to do is to have the signs painted on the road at the beginning and the end of the speed limit. The Amendment to the Amendment would mean a large number of road markings and the motorists would be so accustomed to seeing them that they would not lock out for the other road markings such as those giving directions for going to the left or the right. The most reasonable thing is to leave it to the local authorities to put on the road surface a marking at the beginning and end of the speed limit area so as not to confuse the motorist With too many signs. If we are to have our roads painted with all sorts of signs they will have no effect at all.

§ Lieut.-Commander AGNEW
I do not know whether my hon. and gallant Friend the Friend the Member for Thornbury (Captain Gunston) plays chess, but if he does I should think he will have quite a good chance of doing so with all these signs on the roadway. I think they are an excellent form of safeguarding the rights of pedestrians; but I cannot say anything further about that. On the subject of my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment, it is desirable that we should enable motorists to keep the habit of glueing their eyes on the roads. Already the London motorist is trained to do that by the new pedestrian crossings, and it would be a very good thing to extend that habit to motorists elsewhere by having the signs actually on the road surface. The Minister told us that he was in correspondence with some of the bodies representing motorists. I have not been in official correspondence with them, because they would not take a great deal of notice of me, but recently I had the 1334 opportunity of consulting a high official of the Automobile Association, who informed me that the association are of the opinion that not only should signs of a signpost type be put at the roadside, but that there should also be these definite marks on the roadway itself, in order to give the motorist that added assistance. As to the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Thornbury that this would entail an almost endless repetition of these signs on the road that, in my opinion, would not be valueless, because there may be side roads coming at intervals into the main road and, therefore, these reminders will be a definite advantage.

§ Captain GUNSTON
The point I was trying to make was that endless repetitions might make the motorist say, "Oh, it is only another sign that I am in a lighted area," and not look out for the other signs.

§ Lieut.-Commander AGNEW
On that I would only say that perhaps some of the trouble in the motoring world in the past has arisen from the fact that there have not been sufficient reminders, in the form of police officers stationed along the roads, and as it would be impracticable to have an innumerable number of them, I think that when the motorist sees the signs repeated he will think perhaps of what will then be the Road Traffic Act. I hope the Minister will give every possible consideration to my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment and accept it.

Mr. STANLEY
I rather hope the Committee will not allow this discussion to degenerate into what might become an interminable and indefinite argument as to the respective value of signs upon the road and at the side of the road, and I have, therefore, risen to try to bring the Committee back to the actual point of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment. As an Amendment it does not mean anything at all. I agree with my hon. and gallant Friend that it is a very good Amendment, but its practical effect is nil. It would only put on the local authority the duty to put down these traffic signs on the road if I directed that they should do so, and as a matter of fact duties are already placed upon them by the words which are used in my 1335 Amendment. I think the communication which I have sent to the local authorities will show that I have already appreciated the possible advantage of markings of this kind, and I am asking the advice of representative organisations, but I do not think that motoring opinion is anything like so unanimous on this point as my hon. and gallant Friend would lead the House to believe. I almost thought there would be blows when my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Sir G. Fox) got up from the side of the hon. and gallant Member who has been his bed-fellow throughout this discussion and argued that nothing was easier than for a motorist to see pedestrians crossing the white lines; but I had to sit up until after 12 o'clock last night for the express purpose of being told by another hon. Member who speaks for motorists that they could not be seen at all. My only desire is that the signs we put up as a guidance to motorists shall be the best possible for the purpose. Without being the practical motorist that my hon. and gallant Friend is I start with a bias rather in favour of these signs on the road, because they seem to me to be extremely easy to distinguish, and I can tell the House that I already have sufficient powers to include them among the signs. My only desire is finally to choose those signs which the local authorities and motorists themselves believe will most usefully serve the purpose.

§ Sir W. BRASS
In view of the fact that my hon. Friend has seen fit to bring me into the argument by reference to what was done last night I should like to explain that what I was trying to do then was to show that although these lines on the road are visible when the motorist gets quite close to them they are not visible at a considerable distance if they are merely painted on the road. I rather disagree with my hon. and gallant Friend who has moved this Amendment to the proposed Amendment. The motorist of the future will have to spend about 33 per cent. of the time on a journey in looking for street lamps—either standards or those attached to telegraph poles and so on—and I think the signs which are to take the place of some of these street lamps should also be on the side of the road, to which his eyes 1336 will be glued, rather than on the road surface where he at present looks, because it is to the side of the road that he will have to look in future if he is to avoid being caught in police traps.

§ Sir C. OMAN
May I be allowed to point out, both to the Minister and to the proposer and seconder of the Amendment to the proposed Amendment the danger that may result if a fall of snow or a muddy day makes these signs invisible. If the motorist were to rely on them in those circumstances he might come to grief.

§ Sir G. FOX
I would point out in reply that when it is snowing no motorist could drive at a speed exceeding 30 miles an hour without being a danger to the public.

§ Commander MARSDEN
After the explanation given by the Minister I beg to ask leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ Sir W. BRASS
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 5, to leave out from "the," to "and," in line 7, and to insert: entrance to and exit from a length of road subject to a speed limit under this Act and by means of such traffic signs placed not more than two hundred yards apart as to a length of road where a direction is in force under Sub-sections (4) and (5) of this Section. If hon. Members will look at my Amendment and the Minister's Amendment they will see what the effect of including my Amendment would be. I will read out the words of the Minister's Amendment as they would be if he accepts my Amendment. His Amendment would then read: To erect and maintain traffic signs in such positions as may be requisite in order to give effect to general or other directions given by the Minister for the purpose of securing that adequate guidance is given to drivers of motor vehicles as to the entrance to and exit from a length of road subject to a speed limit under this Act and by means of such traffic signs placed not more than two hundred yards apart as to a length of road where a direction is in force under Sub-sections (4) and (5) of this Section. Sub-sections (4) and (5) deal with the case where a direction is being given either that a certain portion of road is to he included in a speed limit or a certain 1337 portion of road is to be excluded from a speed limit. Sub-section (4) says that a direction that a length of road shall be deemed not to be a road in a built-up area may be given by the local authority by means of on Order, and Sub-section (5) says that if the Minister is satisfied that the local authority have failed in that respect he may make an Order giving a direction. The Minister has said that he is willing to agree that at the entrance to all so-called built-up areas—which in a large number of cases are not really built-up areas at all but merely lit-up area—there shall be a notice of some kind to indicate to the motorist that he is entering an area which is a speed limit area. The object of my Amendment is to secure that not only shall there be these signs at the beginning and the end of each area but that they shall be at distances of not more than 200 yards apart, like the street lamps for which he has provided. He has put into the Bill a provision that in the system of street lighting the lamps are to be at a distance of not more than 200 yards apart, and I have copied the 200 yards from that provision. What I want to ensure is that in an area, for instance, a long village, where there is no system of street lighting at all, not only shall there be indications that it is a speed limit area at the entrance to and the exit from the village but that there shall also be, at intervals of 200 yards, indications that it is a speed limit area.
I am not asking the Minister to do this in areas which are street lit. Obviously, it would be stupid to do it all over London. The street with lamps is to be an indication of a speed limit area, and one could not expect the Minister to put up at intervals of 200 yards all over London, where there are street lamps in existence, signs to show that a 30-mile speed limit was in operation. My Amendment is confined to the portions of a road which are not inside a speed limit area as described in Clause 1. Take, for instance, the Great West Road. That road, I understood from what was said in the Committee stage, may possibly be decontrolled. Some of the by-pass roads out of London may be decontrolled altogether. Consequently, there would be no speed limit on those by-pass roads, although they have a system of street lighting along them. I suggest that at 1338 intervals of 200 yards—I am not wedded to 200 yards—certainly at reasonable intervals, there is an indication to the motorist that the lamp is not a lamp in the sense that it is to indicate that the driver must put his foot on the brake and get down to 30 miles an hour. It is important that the motorist should have every possible opportunity of knowing what is his position on the road. My hon. Friend the Minister is equally anxious with me that there should be no ambiguity or misunderstanding and that when a motorist enters into a speed limit area he should at once know that he is in a speed limit area, either by seeing street lamps or by some other sign. For that reason, I would ask my hon. Friend to consider the Amendment in all sincerity, because it is a constructive one and is simply put down with the object of endeavouring to make it as clear as possible to the driver that he is or is not in a speed limit area, where a direction has been given by the Minister which alters the lighting system of direction.

Mr. STANLEY
I am in general sympathy with a great deal of what my hon. and gallant Friend has said and I hope that when he has heard my reply he will not think it necessary to press the Amendment. These Amendments, which tie the Minister down very tightly on a matter of this kind, are undesirable. The hon. and gallant Member says that his Amendment is confined to an excluded area. With regard to an excluded area, an area where there are street lights but where the speed limit will not be enforced, it will be material if I quote another paragraph from the letter that I wrote to the highway authorities: It is also contemplated that the sign shown in diagram (ii) shall be erected upon every alternate lamp post along any restricted road. I think my hon. and gallant Friend will see that that provision goes somewhat to meet his point of view. In the other case of a place where there are no lights and the speed limit will be enforced, I think it would be impracticable to lay it down that every 200 yards there must be a notice. There would clearly be a number of cases where that would be quite unnecessary. It would be an absurd situation if a road through a village was 201 yards long; that you had to erect a 1339 second sign showing that the speed limit was still operative, a yard before you came out of the speed limit. I do, however, appreciate that there may be cases where it may be desirable to give that sort of repeat sign, where the motorist may have missed the original sign. I will certainly give further consideration to the possibility of repeat signs of that nature, although, if we are to do that, I do not see the logical reason for doing it only in the areas where directions are given. However, I will consider the whole question and the necessity under special circumstances of giving repeat signs for the guidance of motorists.

§ Sir W. BRASS
In view of the statement and the undertaking which the Minister has been kind enough to give, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment

§ Sir W. BRASS
I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 19, to leave out, "or for the attachment of reflectors thereto,"
There is one point which I should like to impress on the Minister. At the end of his Amendment it is provided that the Minister shall have power to make regulations providing for the illumination during the hours of darkness, during which a speed limit is to be observed under this Section that traffic signs to be erected, or for the attachment of reflectors thereto. My point is, that I do not think that a reflector is really efficient unless it is always on the correct side of the road. It is possible to put a reflector on a system of street lighting which is on the off side of the road. The system of street lighting does not always go across the road as it does in London, on country roads one often finds that all the lamps are on one side of the road and not dotted from one side to the other. I think it would be better if the Minister would consider illuminating the signs at night instead of using reflectors. It ought not to be very difficult to illuminate the sign by attaching it to the system-of street lighting. When street lighting is in existence the speed limit comes into operation, except in cases where there is a direction. In places where there is a direction, perhaps the Minister 1340 would see that the sign is on the correct side of the road, always on the near side, so that it is plainly visible. Certainly where a system of street lighting exists it would be very much better to have the signs illuminated at night, instead of using reflectors.

§ Sir G. FOX
I think this question emphasises the argument that I have put before in favour of having the sign on the carriageway. I think the difficulty would be got over if the marking were put on the carriageway.

Mr. STANLEY
I think my hon. and gallant Friend realises that the effect of the Amendment would be to deprive me of the possibility of using reflectors in any circumstances. I am sure the Committee as a whole will agree that there are many cases in which a reflector is a perfectly adequate substitute for a light, and the only practicable one possible in a village. Under my Amendment I shall have power to prescribe either. I will certainly give consideration to the desirability in certain cases of insisting upon direct lighting and in other cases of permitting the use of a reflector.

§ Sir W. BRASS
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Mr. STANLEY
I beg to move in page 3, line 26, to leave out from "borough" to the first "the," in line 30, and to insert: in a non-county borough possessing a separate police force or having a population, according to the last census, for the time being of over twenty thousand, and in an urban district having such a population as aforesaid. This is purely a drafting Amendment necessitated by the fact that the Local Government Act 1933, has come into force since the Clause passed through Committee, and the expression "urban district" has now ceased to include a non-county borough. It was agreed in Committee that urban districts having a population of over 20,000, and non-county boroughs of the same population, or possessing their own police force, should be put on the same level. This Amendment restores the position.

§ Mr. ALED ROBERTS
On a point of Order. I wanted to say something on this Amendment. I tried to catch your eye before the Question was put.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I am afraid the hon. Member is too late. He did not succeed in catching my eye. He only drew my attention to the fact that he was on his feet after I had collected the voices. The Amendment has now been disposed of.