HC Deb 13 June 1934 vol 290 cc1858-63

11.38 p.m.


With regard to the first Amendment in the name of the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps)—in page 11, line 15, after "Treasury," to insert: (including the exercise of powers conferred upon the Minister under the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1927)."— I shall be glad if he will explain it to me. I am not certain what he proposes.


The purpose is to en able the moneys which are to be expended under this Clause by the Minister to be related, in accordance with the powers which he possesses under the Diseases of Animals Acts, to tuberculous herds. Unless some such words are put in, he will not have power to utilise this money for such purpose.


I am not certain the Amendment is necessary. However, I will let the hon. and learned Gentleman move it to enable the Minister to reply.

11.39 p.m.


I beg to move, in page 11, line 15, after "Treasury," to insert: (including the exercise of powers conferred upon the Minister under the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1927). The object of putting down this Amendment is really to raise the question as to whether the Minister has full powers to utilise the moneys which are being provided for improving the quality of milk supplied in dealing with tuberculosis among cattle on the lines of the Diseases of Animals Acts. That is to say, we should set up an inspectorate and go in for isolation, slaughter and various other things for dealing with all the forms of tuberculosis which occur, as if they were diseases in animals, not merely certain specified and limited forms of tuberculosis but all forms, and all cases of tuberculosis in milk. We want it to be clearly specified that the right hon. Gentleman can deal with the matter as a single authority, not merely leaving it to the county councils and other bodies who, according to the report of the Committee, have not been carrying out inspection and other duties and powers they possess, in an efficient and proper way.

11.41 p.m.


I think we are at some cross purposes over this Clause and the Amendment put down by my hon. and learned Friend. Clause 9 places at the disposal of the Minister in England and the Secretary of State in Scotland this maximum sum, the object of which is the production of "milk for human consumption, pure and free from the infection of any disease. We intend to achieve that object by a campaign against tuberculosis in cattle, and the Clause provides that the money may be used to pay registered producers sums of money if they produce milk in conformity with prescribed conditions. This is in addition to and not in substitution for the existing powers under the Diseases of Animals Acts, 1894 to 1927, and the Tuberculosis Order, 1925. Under that Order the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries, in virtue of powers vested in him under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1984 and 1925, and other powers, makes an Order that any person having in his possession any cow suffering from tuber culosis, or which appears to be suffering from tuberculosis, shall without avoidable delay give information of the fact to the local police force, and the police force then transmits the information to the local authority. Thereupon, the provisions of the Act come into force. We put an inducement before the owner of a herd to make him co-operate wholeheartedly with the authorities in this campaign of cleaning up the herds.

After consideration of the report of the Cattle Diseases Committee we came to the conclusion that the best way will be to make these small grants, because it is a well-known maxim that more flies are caught in a jar of honey than in a hogshead of vinegar. If we can offer this inducement to the proprietors to come in with us in the campaign, we shall get a much speedier start and more rapid development than by merely relying upon compulsory Orders under the Diseases of Animals Acts. There is no intention to neglect our powers under the Diseases of Animals Acts. We intend to press them in every possible way. I am sure that we shall have a much greater development of the veterinary service under these provisions than ever before, because unless there is some veterinary inspection dairy herds will not draw the premium. Farmers themselves will demand a veterinary inspection and services, which up to now they have rather resisted because they considered it would involve them in heavy expenses without any benefit. In the future, with this benefit they will be eager to take advantage of veterinary inspection and service. We are maintaining our powers under the Diseases of Animals Acts and superimposing this additional scheme. The two working together will, we believe, mean that we shall make more rapid progress than ever before. I do not think the Amendment is necessary and I hope the hon. Member will not press it.

11.47 p.m.


We must express our disapproval of the policy of the Government in this Clause. The right hon. Gentleman says that this policy is supplementary to any existing powers he may have. All the powers which the right hon. Gentleman has now are not being used. In county after county no inspections ever take place, and my hon. Friend tells me that the agricultural members of the Derbyshire County Council are doing their best to get the only inspector in the county dismissed. The right hon. Gentleman says that in providing a premium he will encourage the better type of farmer to strive to obtain it, but the premium he offers, if it is 1d. per gallon, will only cover 43,000,000 gallons of milk out of the 426,000,000 gallons, and if it is ½d. it will only cover 86,000,000 gallons out of 425,000,000 gallons. We do not think that the premium will do much good, or that amount of good which it might have done if he had increased the number of inspectors and organised it on a national basis. I am sure that they would insist on isolation here and there. We think that the Minister should have more power, and that he should exercise it, instead of leaving it to county councils who steadily refuse to carry out the dictums of the right hon. Gentleman. In his pure milk policy the right hon. Gentleman has fallen short of the case. We are anxious to secure a milk supply

for more people, an increased consumption of fresh liquid milk, and this is a most important Amendment towards securing that.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 33; Noes, 171.

Division No. 288.] AYES. [11.51 p.m.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Holdsworth, Herbert M liner, Major James
Cape, Thomas Janner, Barnett Rea, Walter Russell
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jenkins, Sir William Rothschild, James A. de
Cripps, Sir Stafford Johnstone, Harcourt (S, Shields) Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Edwards, Charles Lawson, John James White, Henry Graham
Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) Logan, David Gilbert Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Lunn, William Wilmot, John
Gardner, Benjamin Walter Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
Grenfell, David Bees (Glamorgan) Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grundy, Thomas W. Mainwaring, William Henry Mr. John and Mr. Groves.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Fuller, Captain A. G. Moreing, Adrian C
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Ganzonl, Sir John Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.)
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Gledhill, Gilbert Morrison, William Shephard
Apsley, Lord Gluckstein, Louis Halle Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Aske, Sir Robert William Goff, Sir Park Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Goldie, Noel B. Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gower, Sir Robert Nunn, William
Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey Graves, Marjorie O'Donovan, Dr. William James
Bateman, A. L. Grimston, R. V. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Guinness, Thomas L. E. B., Pearson, William G.
Bossom, A. C. Guy, J. C. Morrison Perkins, Walter R. D.
Boulton, W. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Petherick, M.
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Hanbury, Cecil Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston)
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Hanley, Dennis A. Pike, Cecil F.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Brown, Col. D. c. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Procter, Major Henry Adam
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Pybus, Sir Percy John
Browne, Captain A. C. Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Radford, E. A.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)
Bullock, Captain Malcolm Horsbrugh, Florence Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Burghley, Lord Howard, Tom Forrest Ramsden, Sir Eugene
Burnett, John George Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Held, William Allan (Derby)
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Rickards, George William
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Hunter, Capt. M- J. (Brigg) Ropner, Colonel L.
Carver, Major William H. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Jamieson, Douglas Ruggies-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Runge, Norah Cecil
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy)
Colfox, Major William Philip Ker, J. Campbell Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Salmon, Sir Isidore
Cook, Thomas A. Kerr, Hamilton W. Salt, Edward W.
Copeland, Ida Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Cranborne, Viscount Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Scone, Lord
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Leech, Dr. J. W. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Crossley, A. C. Liddall, Walter S. Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Lindsay, Noel Ker Skelton, Archibald Noel
Dalkeith, Earl of Llewellin, Major John J. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwlch)
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Mabane, William Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dlne, C.)
Dickie, John P. MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Somervell, Sir Donald
Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert McCorquodale, M. S. Soper, Richard
Drewe, Cedric MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Drummond-Wolff, H. M. C. McKie, John Hamilton Southby, Commander Archibald R. J
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) McLean, Dr. W H. (Tradeston) Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Edmondson, Major Sir James Macmillan, Maurice Harold Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. Stanley Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland)
Elliston, Captain George Sampson Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Stones, James
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) Storey, Samuel
Estenhigh, Reginald Clara Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Stourton, Hon. John J.
Fremantle, Sir Francis Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Sutcliffe, Harold Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) Wise, Alfred R.
Thompson, Sir Luke Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) Wragg, Herbert
Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) Whyte, Jardine Ball
Tree, Ronald Wills, Wilfrid D. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) Captain Austin Hudson and Sir
Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) Walter Womersley.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.