HC Deb 13 June 1934 vol 290 cc1849-54

Amendment made: In page 3, line 19, leave out from "any," to "been," in line 20, and insert: of the twenty-four consecutive months falling between the end of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, and the beginning of April nineteen hundred and thirty-six."—(Mr. Elliot.)

11.7 p.m.


I beg to move, in page 3, line 28, to leave out from the beginning to the end of line 4 on page 4.

If hon. Members will look at the proviso they will see that it reads as follows, leaving out the unimportant words: Provided that the Minister may direct that no sums shall be payable in respect of milk which has been used by a registered producer in manufacturing cheese at a farm, unless the board satisfy the Minister that the registered producer had in his possession not less than such number of milch cows as may be specified in the order. That means that the Minister may withdraw the subsidy for farm-produced cheese to small men with small milk herds. The Minister has never referred to this matter in any speech he has made on the Bill hitherto. He said in one of his speeches that they intended to give this subsidy to milk turned into farm-made cheese, but that they could not extend it to butter; and he never suggested that it could only be the larger farmers who would get it and not the smaller men making cheese. I do not want any discrimination made against the smaller men. This is, of course, restricted to registered producers, and registered producers, by the time this scheme gets into working order, will be accustomed to making up their accounts and presenting their returns and so on in just as clear and honest a way as the larger men; and it seems to me that if it is possible to do the accounting and presumably the checking for the larger men, it ought to be possible for the smaller men too. I have heard no justification for the idea that the Minister may from time to time, without consulting the House, disqualify the smaller cheese producers from getting any assistance, and as I do not see any reason why the smaller men should be left out I move to omit the proviso which enables them to be left out.

11.9 p.m.


The point which the right hon. Gentleman raises can be briefly dealt with. There is no intention that small but consistent farm cheese makers should be excluded from the benefits of the Bill. What it is desired to provide against is administrative complication if occasional cheese makers, with a very small herd of cows, were to get this subsidy. From a purely administrative point of view, and for no other reason, it is necessary that power should be taken so that purely spasmodic conversion of milk into cheese should not attract the subsidy. There would be all the difficulties attendant on the furnishing of evidence on the subject. We have been urged on all hands to make some limitations in the Bill. Here is a limitation, and it is made for purely administrative purposes. It will not in any way prejudice the small but regular cheese producer.

11.11 p.m.


Does this mean that the man who makes cheese with his summer surplus will be hit or will not be hit? This subsidy is, primarily, to deal with the difficulty caused by the summer surplus. Quite a number of people, in the normal way, get rid of the milk, in cheese, up to a fixed quantity, but it is with the summer glut running perhaps for nearly four months that they have a difficulty. It is a normal farming operation to make cheese for four or five summer months. Is that type of man to get subsidy or not?


Certainly he will get the subsidy. The whole matter will be arranged with the board. It is the man who one week in the year, when he has a surplus, converts that surplus into cheese, who will not get the subsidy.

11.12 p.m.


If that is the intention of the Minister this is a most unfortunate way of putting it into the Bill. The only criterion here is the number of cows a man possesses. It does not say whether he makes cheese regularly or irregularly, or anything else. Assume that the limit of cows is five. Anyone who has five

cows, if he makes cheese only once in 10 years, will get the subsidy; but the small man who makes cheese every month during the summer, but has only four cows, will never get the subsidy. The Clause has absolutely no relation to the question whether the making of cheese is regular or not. As it stands it can only hit the small man, whether regular or irregular, and the big man, whether regular or irregular, will get the subsidy. If the Minister of Agriculture desires to carry out what has been said by the Under-Secretary for Scotland no doubt he will give an undertaking that between now and Report the words will be altered to carry out that intention. Otherwise one must vote against these words to protect the Under-Secretary from the Minister of Agriculture.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Commitee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 43.

Division No. 287.] AYES. [11.15 p.m.
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Drewe, Cedric Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Drummond-Wolff H. M. C. Leech, Dr. J. W.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Liddall, Walter S.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J, Edmondson, Major Sir James Lindsay, Noel Ker
Apsley, Lord Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Llewellin, Major John J.
Aske, Sir Robert William Elliston, Captain George Sampson Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Astor, viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Entwistle, Cyril Fullard Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Atholl, Duchess of Essenhigh, Reginald Clare MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Fraser, Captain Sir Ian McCorquodale, M. S.
Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey Fremantle, Sir Francis MacDonald. Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Bateman, A. L. Fuller. Captain A. G. McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Ganzonl, Sir John Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Blindell, James Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.)
Borodale, Viscount Gledhill, Gilbert Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Bossom, A. C. Gluckstein, Louis Halle Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Boulton, W. W. Goff, Sir Park Mitcheson, G. G.
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Goldle, Noel B. Moreing, Adrian C.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Graves, Marjorie Morrison, William Shepherd
Brown. Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Grimston, R. V. Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Browne, Captain A. C. Guinness. Thomas L. E. B. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. J. Guy, J. C. Morrison Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth)
Bullock, Captain Malcolm Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid
Burghley, Lord Hammersley, Samuel S. Nunn, William
Burnett, John George Hanbury, Cecil O'Donovan, Dr. William James
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Hanley, Dennis A. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Carver, Major William H. Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Palmer, Francis Noel
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Pearson, William G.
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Perkins, Walter R. D.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Petherick, M
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'ptn, Bilston)
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Horsbrugh, Florence Pike, Cecil F.
Cook, Thomas A. Howard, Tom Forrest Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Copeland, Ida Howitt. Dr. Alfred B. Procter, Major Henry Adam
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N.) Pybus, Sir Percy John
Cranborne, Viscount Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Radford, E. A.
Crookshank. Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Crossley, A. C. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. Ramsden, Sir Eugene
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Jamieson, Douglas Reid, David D. (County Down)
Culverwell, Cyril Tom Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Dalkeith, Earl of Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. Ker, J. Campbell Rickards, George William
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Ropner, Colonel L.
Dickie, John P. Kerr, Hamilton W. Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger Ross, Ronald D.
Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) Somervell, Sir Donald Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. Soper, Richard Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Runge, Norah Cecil Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Spencer, Captain Richard A. Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Salt, Edward W. Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) Whyte, Jardine Ball
Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) Wills, Wilfrid D.
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H, Stones, James Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Shaw, Helen S. (Lanark, Bothwell) Storey, Samuel Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) Stourton, Hon. John J. Wise, Alfred R.
Skelton, Archibald Noel Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart Wragg, Herbert
Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) Sutcliffe, Harold
Smith. Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Thompson, Sir Luke TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) Tree, Ronald Captain Sir George Bowyer and Sir Walter Womersley.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke Groves, Thomas E. McKie, John Hamilton
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Grundy, Thomas W. Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mainwaring, William Henry
Bernays, Robert Harris, Sir Percy Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Holdsworth, Herbert Milner, Major James
Cape, Thomas Janner, Barnett Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jenkins, Sir William Scone, Lord
Colfox, Major William Philip John, William Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Cripps, Sir Stafford Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) White, Henry Graham
Edwards, Charles Lawson, John James Williams Thomas (York. Don Valley)
Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) Leonard, William Wilmot, John
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Logan, David Gilbert Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Gardner, Benjamin Walter Lunn, William
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Walter Rea and Mr. Rothschild.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

11.23 p.m.


I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

I do so in order to ask the Patronage Secretary how far he proposes to go to-night. In view of the fact that a large part of the time this evening has been taken up with internal discussions, we hope that the House is not to be asked to sit unduly late.

11.24 p.m.


I do not think that we need anticipate any more internal struggles this evening, and I hope that we shall have no strife across the Floor of the House either. Having had a look at the Order Paper, I think that we ought to be able to get to the end of Clause 10 without having to ask the House to sit unduly late. Clause 11 raises a large point, but the Clauses before it raise comparatively small ones. We should be able to conclude our business and get up at a reasonable time.

Question put, and negatived.

Amendment made: In page 4, line 9, leave out "next after that in which the said date falls," and insert "of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-four."—[Mr. Elliot.]