§
Amendment made: In page 3, line 19, leave out from "any," to "been," in line 20, and insert:
of the twenty-four consecutive months falling between the end of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-four, and the beginning of April nineteen hundred and thirty-six."—(Mr. Elliot.)
§ 11.7 p.m.
§ Sir F. ACLANDI beg to move, in page 3, line 28, to leave out from the beginning to the end of line 4 on page 4.
If hon. Members will look at the proviso they will see that it reads as follows, leaving out the unimportant words:
Provided that the Minister may direct that no sums shall be payable in respect of milk which has been used by a registered producer in manufacturing cheese at a farm, unless the board satisfy the Minister that the registered producer had in his possession not less than such number of milch cows as may be specified in the order.That means that the Minister may withdraw the subsidy for farm-produced cheese to small men with small milk herds. The Minister has never referred to this matter in any speech he has made on the Bill hitherto. He said in one of his speeches that they intended to give this subsidy to milk turned into farm-made cheese, but that they could not extend it to butter; and he never suggested that it could only be the larger farmers who would get it and not the smaller men making cheese. I do not 1850 want any discrimination made against the smaller men. This is, of course, restricted to registered producers, and registered producers, by the time this scheme gets into working order, will be accustomed to making up their accounts and presenting their returns and so on in just as clear and honest a way as the larger men; and it seems to me that if it is possible to do the accounting and presumably the checking for the larger men, it ought to be possible for the smaller men too. I have heard no justification for the idea that the Minister may from time to time, without consulting the House, disqualify the smaller cheese producers from getting any assistance, and as I do not see any reason why the smaller men should be left out I move to omit the proviso which enables them to be left out.
§ 11.9 p.m.
§ Mr. SKELTONThe point which the right hon. Gentleman raises can be briefly dealt with. There is no intention that small but consistent farm cheese makers should be excluded from the benefits of the Bill. What it is desired to provide against is administrative complication if occasional cheese makers, with a very small herd of cows, were to get this subsidy. From a purely administrative point of view, and for no other reason, it is necessary that power should be taken so that purely spasmodic conversion of milk into cheese should not attract the subsidy. There would be all the difficulties attendant on the furnishing of evidence on the subject. We have been urged on all hands to make some limitations in the Bill. Here is a limitation, and it is made for purely administrative purposes. It will not in any way prejudice the small but regular cheese producer.
§ 11.11 p.m.
§ Sir F. ACLANDDoes this mean that the man who makes cheese with his summer surplus will be hit or will not be hit? This subsidy is, primarily, to deal with the difficulty caused by the summer surplus. Quite a number of people, in the 1851 normal way, get rid of the milk, in cheese, up to a fixed quantity, but it is with the summer glut running perhaps for nearly four months that they have a difficulty. It is a normal farming operation to make cheese for four or five summer months. Is that type of man to get subsidy or not?
§ Mr. SKELTONCertainly he will get the subsidy. The whole matter will be arranged with the board. It is the man who one week in the year, when he has a surplus, converts that surplus into cheese, who will not get the subsidy.
§ 11.12 p.m.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSIf that is the intention of the Minister this is a most unfortunate way of putting it into the Bill. The only criterion here is the number of cows a man possesses. It does not say whether he makes cheese regularly or irregularly, or anything else. Assume that the limit of cows is five. Anyone who has five
§ cows, if he makes cheese only once in 10 years, will get the subsidy; but the small man who makes cheese every month during the summer, but has only four cows, will never get the subsidy. The Clause has absolutely no relation to the question whether the making of cheese is regular or not. As it stands it can only hit the small man, whether regular or irregular, and the big man, whether regular or irregular, will get the subsidy. If the Minister of Agriculture desires to carry out what has been said by the Under-Secretary for Scotland no doubt he will give an undertaking that between now and Report the words will be altered to carry out that intention. Otherwise one must vote against these words to protect the Under-Secretary from the Minister of Agriculture.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Commitee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 43.
1853| Division No. 287.] | AYES. | [11.15 p.m. |
| Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) | Drewe, Cedric | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Drummond-Wolff H. M. C. | Leech, Dr. J. W. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) | Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Liddall, Walter S. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J, | Edmondson, Major Sir James | Lindsay, Noel Ker |
| Apsley, Lord | Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter | Llewellin, Major John J. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Elliston, Captain George Sampson | Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander |
| Astor, viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) | Entwistle, Cyril Fullard | Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Essenhigh, Reginald Clare | MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) |
| Barclay-Harvey, C. M. | Fraser, Captain Sir Ian | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey | Fremantle, Sir Francis | MacDonald. Malcolm (Bassetlaw) |
| Bateman, A. L. | Fuller. Captain A. G. | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell | Ganzonl, Sir John | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Blindell, James | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) |
| Borodale, Viscount | Gledhill, Gilbert | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John |
| Bossom, A. C. | Gluckstein, Louis Halle | Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) |
| Boulton, W. W. | Goff, Sir Park | Mitcheson, G. G. |
| Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton | Goldle, Noel B. | Moreing, Adrian C. |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties) |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) | Graves, Marjorie | Morrison, William Shepherd |
| Brown. Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) | Grimston, R. V. | Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. |
| Browne, Captain A. C. | Guinness. Thomas L. E. B. | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. J. | Guy, J. C. Morrison | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) |
| Bullock, Captain Malcolm | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid |
| Burghley, Lord | Hammersley, Samuel S. | Nunn, William |
| Burnett, John George | Hanbury, Cecil | O'Donovan, Dr. William James |
| Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) | Hanley, Dennis A. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. |
| Carver, Major William H. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) | Pearson, William G. |
| Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. | Perkins, Walter R. D. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller | Petherick, M |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'ptn, Bilston) |
| Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Horsbrugh, Florence | Pike, Cecil F. |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Howard, Tom Forrest | Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. |
| Copeland, Ida | Howitt. Dr. Alfred B. | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. | Hudson, Capt. A. u. M. (Hackney, N.) | Pybus, Sir Percy John |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Radford, E. A. |
| Crookshank. Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) |
| Crossley, A. C. | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. | Ramsden, Sir Eugene |
| Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard | Jamieson, Douglas | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Culverwell, Cyril Tom | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) | Renwick, Major Gustav A. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C. | Ker, J. Campbell | Rickards, George William |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Dickie, John P. | Kerr, Hamilton W. | Rosbotham, Sir Thomas |
| Dixon, Rt. Hon. Herbert | Keyes, Admiral Sir Roger | Ross, Ronald D. |
| Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) | Somervell, Sir Donald | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A. | Soper, Richard | Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Runge, Norah Cecil | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. | Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend) |
| Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. | Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock) |
| Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) | Spencer, Captain Richard A. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Salt, Edward W. | Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westmorland) | Whyte, Jardine Ball |
| Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart | Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) | Wills, Wilfrid D. |
| Shakespeare, Geoffrey H, | Stones, James | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd) |
| Shaw, Helen S. (Lanark, Bothwell) | Storey, Samuel | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) | Stourton, Hon. John J. | Wise, Alfred R. |
| Skelton, Archibald Noel | Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart | Wragg, Herbert |
| Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Sutcliffe, Harold | |
| Smith. Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) | Thompson, Sir Luke | TELLERS FOR THE AYES— |
| Smith, Sir Robert (Ab'd'n & K'dine, C.) | Tree, Ronald | Captain Sir George Bowyer and Sir Walter Womersley. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir Francis Dyke | Groves, Thomas E. | McKie, John Hamilton |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Grundy, Thomas W. | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Mainwaring, William Henry |
| Bernays, Robert | Harris, Sir Percy | Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Holdsworth, Herbert | Milner, Major James |
| Cape, Thomas | Janner, Barnett | Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Jenkins, Sir William | Scone, Lord |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | John, William | Smith, Tom (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) | Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) | White, Henry Graham |
| Edwards, Charles | Lawson, John James | Williams Thomas (York. Don Valley) |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Leonard, William | Wilmot, John |
| Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) | Logan, David Gilbert | Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff) |
| Gardner, Benjamin Walter | Lunn, William | |
| Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Walter Rea and Mr. Rothschild. |
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ 11.23 p.m.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I do so in order to ask the Patronage Secretary how far he proposes to go to-night. In view of the fact that a large part of the time this evening has been taken up with internal discussions, we hope that the House is not to be asked to sit unduly late.
§ 11.24 p.m.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Captain Margesson)I do not think that we need anticipate any more internal struggles this evening, and I hope that we shall have no strife across the Floor of the House either. Having had a look at the Order Paper, I think that we ought to be able to get to the end of Clause 10 without having to ask the House to sit unduly late. Clause 11 raises a large point, but the Clauses before it raise comparatively small ones. We should be able to conclude our business and get up at a reasonable time.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ Amendment made: In page 4, line 9, leave out "next after that in which the said date falls," and insert "of September, nineteen hundred and thirty-four."—[Mr. Elliot.]