HC Deb 26 July 1934 vol 292 cc2129-35

Lords Amendment: In page 5, line 16, after "shall," insert: unless for any special reason the court thinks fit to order otherwise.

2.1 a.m.

Sir W. BRASS

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the word "special."

Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 140; Noes, 12.

Division No. 360.] AYES. [1.58 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Goff, Sir Park Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Nathan, Major H. L.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) Graves, Marjorie Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) Greene, William P. C. North, Edward T.
Aske, Sir Robert William Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Orr Ewing, I. L.
Bateman, A. L. Grimston, R. V. Palmer, Francis Noel
Bilndell, James Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Parkinson, John Allen
Bossom, A. C. Guy, J. C. Morrison Pearson, William G.
Boulton, W. W. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Penny, Sir George
Bower, Commander Robert Talton Harbord, Arthur Petherick, M.
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Harris, Sir Percy Power, Sir John Cecil
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Pybus, Sir John
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Heligers, Captain F. F. A. Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Browne, Captain A. C. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)
Buchan-Hepburn. P. G. T. Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Rathbone, Eleanor
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Hare-Belisha, Leslie Ray, Sir William
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Horsbrugh, Florence Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Ropner, Colonel L.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Jamieson, Douglas Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Conant, R. J. E. Jenkins, Sir William Rosa Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Cooper, A. Duff Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Runge, Norah Cecil
Copeland, Ida Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Craven-Erns, William Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Cripps, Sir Stafford Leckie, J. A. Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-in-F.)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Leech, Dr. J. W. Somervell, Sir Donald
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Lindsay, Noel Ker Soper, Richard
Daggar, George Loder, Captain J. de Vere Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Daikelth, Earl of Loftus, Pierce C. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Stones, James
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Mabene, William Strauss, Edward A.
Dobble, William MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Sutcliffe, Harold
Duggan, Hubert John McConnell, Sir Joseph Templeton, William P.
Edge, Sir William McCorquodale, M. S. Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Edmondson, Major Sir James MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Edwards, Charles McEntee, Valentine L. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter McKie, John Hamilton Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Elmley, Viscount Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Mainwaring, William Henry Wise, Alfred R.
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Womersley, Sir Walter
Ford, Sir Patrick J. Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) Worthington, Dr. John V.
Fraser, Captain Sir Ian Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Fremantle, Sir Francis Milner, Major James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Captain Sir George Bowyer and Major George Davies.
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Angiesea) Morgan, Robert H.
NOES.
Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J. Janner, Barnett Rutherford, John (Edmonton)
Brass, Captain Sir William Liddall, Walter S. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Broadbent, Colonel John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C.
Evans, Capt. Ernest (Welsh Univ.) Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) Sir Gifford Fox and Captain Strickland.

I move this Amendment because I want the magistrates to have more discretion than they have by including the words "special reason." I want to make it wider than it is at the present time. What I want to happen is this. Say a person is driving over the speed limit in a built-up area and there is no danger at all and he is merely committing a technical offence, I want it to be possible for the magistrates to take that into account and to say that there is a reason why the endorsement on the licence should not be made. I think there is another point which might also be mentioned in this particular case. There is a point where the magistrates might consider that an endorsement would prejudice a man getting work later on, and the magistrates might say, "Well, although this man has committed an offence, he is a man who is earning his own living, and therefore we shall not endorse." Then, the next case will come along, and the person concerned has exceeded the speed limit to the same extent exactly, possibly on the same road and at the same time, and, as he is not earning his living by driving, they will say, "In this particular case, which is not a special case, we propose to endorse his licence, because he does not earn his living by driving, although the cases are exactly similar as far as breaking this particular law is concerned."

I appeal to the Minister to give this matter very careful consideration. He is going to impose, later on, a speed limit in certain areas, over a distance of 30,000 miles, about one-third of this country. There will be any number of prosecutions. I have estimated them at 486,000 in 41 months, on the average of the Oxford prosecutions. That is a very serious matter when you consider that all those people will have their licences compulsorily endorsed under this particular Clause of the Bill. The magistrates are the people who try the case, and they understand whether there is any question of danger or carelessness, whether it be a serious case or a perfectly trivial case. They see the witnesses and examine them and find out exactly what was the position. They are very much better able to judge whether a licence should be endorsed or not, and I want to have this Clause as wide as possible in order to give magistrates this discretion which I certainly think they ought to have, and it is for that reason I move.the omission of the word "special."

Sir G. FOX

I beg to second the Amendment to the Lords Amendment. I do think magistrates should have the power to let people keep clean licences. I myself have driven for many years, and I pride myself on having a clean licence. I think there may be special circumstances in which a Court may say that there should be no endorsement.

2.11 a.m.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

I do not think that there is very much between the hon. and gallant Gentleman and ourselves in this matter. I would ask them, however, to consider the effects of the Amendment. It would produce an almost impossible form of words. As the Bill left this House, the court was ordered that it shall endorse particulars' on a licence after the first conviction. That is the primary principle, and we are putting the courts in a great difficulty if we say that they shall do something and then we say that they need not do it. We have had in mind the cases quoted by the hon. and gallant Member for Clitheroe (Sir W. Brass), and that is why we have put in the words in the Lords Amendment. These words are taken from the similar discretion which is given to a court under Section 11 (3) of the Act of 1930, where, as my hon. and gallant Friend will remember, after a conviction it is provided that the licence shall be suspended, but discretion is given to the court. I can assure him that "special reason" covers the case where the offence is small and may affect a man's employment, and that that is clearly a special reason which the Court is entitled to take into consideration. For these reasons, I hope the hon. and gallant Member will not press his Amendment.

2.13 a.m.

Mr. H. WILLIAMS

I hope that the Solicitor-General will meet my hon. Friend on this point. By Clause 4, a person for careless driving may have his licence endorsed, although it may be a trivial offence. If the words "special reason" are left in, they must mean rather exceptional circumstances in which magistrates are to abstain from doing this very unpleasant thing. I remember a case in which I myself was concerned. I was charged with careless driving, and, if this Clause had been enforced and I had been found guilty of the offence, my licence would have been endorsed. The decision was that the charge ought never to have been brought, and I had an apology from Scotland Yard. If the court had accepted the story the policeman told, I should have been convicted of careless driving, and, if the Clause had been in force, I should have had my licence endorsed, although I had com- mitted no offence whatsoever. I do not like Clause 4 and I support the proposal to leave out the word "special."

Question, "That the word 'special' stand part of the Lords Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Question, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment," put, and agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON

May I be permitted to move the Adjournment of the House?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert)

If I accept the motion at all, in my discretion, I can—and shall—put it forthwith without debate.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON

I beg to move, "That this House do now adjourn."

We have now discussed this very important Measure, which will affect the whole country, for some three hours. I refer, of course, particularly to the Amendments from the Lords, and I do not think that anybody who has listened to the debate can say that the objections raised have been trivial. After all, we are in a difficult position. We have had a new Minister and no one knows what would have happened to the Government if the Solicitor-General had not been sitting by his side. The questions raised have been largely legal matters which only lawyers can decide. I do not think it is within the province of the Minister of Transport to reply to these things, and the Solicitor-General has done yeoman service for the Government to-night. I want to ask whether the Government have any power to accept any Amendments. Are we in such a position to-night that

the Government are quite powerless to do anything but accept 14 pages of Amendments, because the other place is not going to sit again. Cannot we have an answer to that question, because, if that be so, we are playing one of the biggest farces ever played in Parliament. If they can tell us I shall be more satisfied as to whether some of these questions before the House are really being decided on their merits. I think that there is an underlying feeling that the 14 pages of Amendments are to be got through to-night, and that the Government have no power to give way on one of them. That seems to me to be a most disgraceful thing.

I do not think that we can be accused of flippancy or obstruction. We sat two and a half months in Committee on this very contentious Bill. We did not all agree. Some of us felt very strongly on the matter. Here we are in the small hours of the morning trying to deal with this question again and altering penalties which have not been the decision of the Government, but are hapazard Amendments introduced in another place during debate. There were very few people present there, and the Government of the day did not feel they could resist this Amendment. We are now in the position of having these haphazard additions and abstractions from the Measure which was changed and altered in another place to consider, and the Government are apparently unable to alter a single comma of what has been done.

Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."

The House divided: Ayes, 24; Noes, 121.

Division No. 361.] AYES. [2.24 a.m.
Baldwin-Webb, Colonel J. Jenkins, Sir William Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour McEntee, Valentine L. Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Craven-Eills, William Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Ropner, Colonel L.
Daggar, George Mainwaring, William Henry Rutherford, John (Edmonton)
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Milner, Major James Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.
Cobble, William Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Edwards, Charles Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald
Fox, Sir Gifford North, Edward T. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Parkinson, John Allen Captain Sir William Brass and Captain Strickland.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bossom, A. C. Brown, Ernest (Leith)
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Boulton, W. W. Browne, Captain A. C.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Bower, Commander Robert Tatton Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Albery, Irving James Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Caporn, Arthur Cecil
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.
Allen. Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) Broadbent, Colonel John Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey
Bateman, A. L. Brocklebank, C. E. R. Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J.
Conant, R. J. E. Howard, Tom Forrest Pybus, Sir John
Cooper, A. Duff Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Copeland, Ida Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Ray, Sir William
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Jamieson, Douglas Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Dalkeith, Earl of Janner, Barnett Ropner, Colonel L.
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Kerr, Lieut.-Cot. Charles (Montrose) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset Yeovil) Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Dugdale, Captain Thomas Lionel Leckie, J. A. Runge, Norah Cecil
Duggan, Hubert John Leech, Dr. J. W. Sandeman, Sir A N. Stewart
Edge, Sir William Liddall, Walter S. Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Edmondson, Major Sir James Lindsay, Noel Ker Smith, Sir J. Walker- (Barrow-In-F.)
Elmley, Viscount Loder, Captain J. de Vere Somervell, Sir Donald
Entwistle, Cyril fullard Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Soper, Richard
Fleming, Edward Lascelles Mabane, William Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) MacAndrew, Lieut.-Col. C. G.(Partick) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Fraser, Captain Sir Ian MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Stones, James
Fremantle, Sir Francis McConnell, Sir Joseph Strauss, Edward A.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McCorquodale, M. S. Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesee) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sutcliffe, Harola
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John McKie, John Hamilton Templeton, William P.
Goff, Sir Park McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Graves, Marjorie Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D P Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Greene, William P. C. Mason, Col. Glyn K. (Croydon, N.) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Grimston, R. V. Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chlsw'k) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wailsend)
Guy, J. C. Morrison Morgan, Robert H. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) Wise, Alfred R.
Harbord, Arthur Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univer'ties Womersley, Sir Walter
Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Worthington, Dr. John V.
Heligers, Captain F. F. A. Orr Ewing, I. L.
Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Palmer, Francis Noel TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Pearson, William G. Sir George Penny and Mr. Blindell.
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Petherick, M.
Horsbrugh, Florence Power, Sir John Cecil

Question put, and agreed to.