NEW CLAUSE.—(Power to appoint Deputy Commissioner.) (Hansard, 13 December 1934)

§ The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Oliver Stanley)
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
Hon. Members opposite will, no doubt, recollect that when this Bill was introduced a question was raised as to the number of Commissioners to be appointed. It was said that the districts covered by the Commissioner for England and Wales might prove to be too large and that the work to be done under the Bill would be facilitated by the appointment of extra Commissioners. Hon. Members I am sure will agree that I expressed no belief in that view. I made it clear that my own belief was that a system under which district commissioners were responsible to a central commissioner in London who could conduct all the negotiations necessary with Government Departments and other bodies at the centre was the best and most expeditious arrangement. I was, I confess, impressed with a point 578 made, I think, by the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) who, while not challenging my view for the moment, asked what would happen if the Commissioner himself were to come along and say, "I find this arrangement cumbersome and I think it would be better to have a separate Commissioner for part of the area." The hon. Member pointed out that in such a case, although it might be generally agreed that the suggested alteration would be useful, it would be impossible to make it without coming back to Parliament for further legislation. At the time I gave a promise that between the Committee stage and the Report stage I would consider the matter on the clear understanding that I, myself, had no intention whatever of making use of any powers which might be granted in the matter in the near future and that if such powers were put in at all they would be put in purely as a precaution in case experience taught us that some change was desirable.
I tried to have a word with the hon. Member for Leigh yesterday but unfortunately I was unable to get in touch with him to explain certain practical difficulties which arise. In the first place, I understand that a direct Amendment to increase the number of Commissioners would be out of order at this stage as increasing the charge, while the sort of conditional or provisional Amendment which has been put down in the name of the hon. Member for Leigh, and which otherwise would appear to meet the case, would also involve technical difficulties. These technical difficulties arise in respect of the fact that the Commissioner, in order that he may hold and acquire land, has to be made a corporate body, and I understand it is not the practice that a corporate body should be the subject of a provisional appointment. Hon. Members will, therefore, see that I have attempted to meet the case put to me.
The effect of the Clause is that if at any time the Commissioner for England and Wales were to come to me and say that experience had shown that the present method of working would be improved by the addition of a separate responsible person in one of the areas, then I should have power, with the consent of the Treasury, to appoint a deputy-commissioner, and to transfer to 579 him all or as many of the functions of the Commissioner as I thought advisable, with the only exception that I should not be able to transfer the power to acquire or hold land as that is a power which could not be properly exercised by an individual, but would have to be exercised by a Commissioner in his corporate capacity. But I think that would in fact meet entirely the point made by my hon. Friend, namely, that it might be convenient to have in an area a man who is responsible direct to the Minister, and who has not to go to the Commissioner himself. That, of course, would be the case with this deputy-commissioner, and I hope, therefore, hon. Members will think that in this new Clause I have met them in the way I said I would. But let me make it clear again that I, myself, do not share at all their views that either now or at any time we shall find that the splitting up of a responsibility of this kind would lead to better results. I know that if you want these functions to be carried out with precision and uniformity, it will be found that the responsible head at the centre, assisted by a resident commissioner in the area, will be the best way of getting the thing done. But I agree that if at any time experience should prove us to be wrong it is well to let us have the power to make a new appointment. It is for that reason that I now move the Clause.

§ Mr. TINKER
When in Committee we tried to get an additional commissioner, the right hon. Gentleman said he would try to meet us on the Report stage. He has done so, and I am glad to think that he has come round to our way of thinking. But he reiterated to-day that he did not think there would be any need for it. As we know, however, in everyday life certain things arise which we did not think would happen, and we find that we have no power to meet them. Therefore, I think he has been well advised in considering this point, and I believe that, on reflection, he will find that he has taken the wisest course. It is just possible that when the commissioner for England and Wales comes to review the work he has got to do and the vast area he has to cover, he may appeal to the Minister and say to him that he would rather have one section— 580 it may be Northumberland and Durham or Wales. Therefore, by this Clause the Minister will have the power to sanction the appointment of another man. There are a number of Amendments which we have put on the Order Paper because we were not quite sure what the Minister would do. There have been many occasions when promises have been made to do things on Report, and then the Minister finds he cannot do them. We, therefore, put our Amendments down so as to be prepared for any emergency. The Minister said they would be out of order. That may or may not be the case, but we were trying to meet the position if we did not get something from the Minister. I am prepared to accept the Clause, believing that it is a step in the right direction. Even although we cannot agree on the principle of a Bill, it is the duty of Members of Parliament to try to make it as workable as possible, and because of that, speaking for myself and, I think, for my colleagues, I shall support the Clause.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
I am very glad that the Minister has seen his way clear to take power to appoint a deputy-commissioner, and I hope that on further reflection he will come to the conclusion that it is exceedingly desirable that he should exercise the power with which he will be endowed. Take the particular case of Wales—and I have no doubt at all that the same thing would apply to the other districts there is a great deal to be said for having someone there who can take authoritative action under this Measure. I sincerely trust that when the right hon. Gentleman goes into the matter further, whatever doubts he may have in his mind now about the appointment of a deputy-commissioner, those doubts will be removed. It will lead to greater co-operation with the local authorities, who will know that they are dealing with a man with authority in the particular area, and not with a man merely there to examine and report. For that reason I urge upon the right hon. Gentleman to put his Clause into operation when the time comes.
There is one question I would like to ask. I was very pleased to hear what he said about the acquisition of land by the commissioner. Whether it is done in the name of the chief commissioner or in 581 that of the deputy-commissioner is immaterial. The actual transaction, I take it, will be conducted by the deputy-commissioner in the area. What may be the signature on the document is merely a matter for lawyers. I can quite see there is contemplated la possibility of what I would call direct action—to use an old phrase—that is, the commissioners are not going to operate merely through local authorities, but they have the right to acquire land themselves and to make experiments for themselves. I should like to ask the Minister whether they will have the right to purchase land outside the limit of the depressed areas. Take as an illustration the question of afforestation. You might not find in a particular area land which would be quite suitable for that purpose, or you might find land quite suitable, but you could not get a really effective area unless you went outside the area sketched in the Bill. Is it contemplated to have a direct operation with or without a local authority, because that is vital if you are to have experiments? But the question I want particularly to ask is whether they would be enabled either to go outside the area altogether, or, at any rate, to purchase part of the land that is required for the completion of their experiment outside the particular area? I should be exceedingly obliged if the right hon. Gentleman would give me an answer to that question.

§ Mr. KINGSLEY GRIFFITH
As I raised the necessity of the appointment of further commissioners on the Second Reading of the Bill, I would like to express gratitude to the Minister for having taken the step he has, though it is rather disappointing to find him taking powers and at the same time almost expressing determination not to use them. There is, however, this advantage. The appointment of a deputy-commissioner will now become an administrative matter, and not one which requires legislation. Consequently, I suppose on a future occasion on the Vote for the Minister's salary, if we think he is not exercising the powers he ought to exercise, we may have an opportunity of pressing our views upon him, land I suppose he will also listen to representations from the areas. I only wish that the Minister, who has shown himself willing to make this Bill elastic 582 in the matter of staff, would also take similar powers with regard to the areas.

§ Mr. STANLEY
If I may reply to the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, if he looks at Sub-section (6) of Clause 1, he will see that the functions of the Commissioners can extend to areas outside those specified provided such measures will afford employment or occupation for substantial numbers of persons from those areas. We had some discussion on that subject on a previous day, and hon. Members pointed out, quite rightly, the danger of these powers being used to bring in a large number of unemployed to work upon some scheme in an area where there are already numbers of local unemployed people, and that where the areas are so tightly drawn as they are in this Bill, it was necessary to have the power to go outside those areas to get land suitable for your particular purpose, which land you might not be able to find inside the area itself. I think hon. Members will generally agree that for such a purpose as, for example, starting any form of agricultural experiment, it might well be necessary to go outside the areas specified in order to find land on which a thing of that kind could be done.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Stockton-on-Tees (Mr. Macmillan)—in page 1, line 6, to leave out Clause 1—I do not select. With regard to the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker)—in page 1, line 6, to leave out "two" and insert "three"—it seems to me that in consequence of the new Clause which has just been agreed to, this Amendment and the consequential Amendments fall.