HC Deb 14 November 1933 vol 281 cc785-99
Mr. RHYS DAVIES

I beg to move, in page 32, line 18, at the ends to insert the words: (a) is directly or indirectly by himself or his partner concerned in any contract, bargain, or employment entered into with the local authority, or participates in the profit of any such contract, bargain, or employment, or any work done under the authority of the local authority. When a very intricate and complicated constitutional problem arises on these Bills, it generally falls to the uninitiated to, handle it, and I am sure the House will pardon me for doing so on this occasion. If hon. Members will turn to Clause 59 they will see at once what the Amendment aims at doing. The Clause relates to the disqualifications for office as members of a local authority. The Clause reads as follows: Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall be disqualified for being elected or being a member of a local authority if he"— And then there is a series of disqualifications against persons sitting on local authorities. The Amendment which I propose puts in the first rank of disqualifications, any person who is, directly or indirectly, by himself or his partner, concerned in any contract, bargain or employment entered into with the local authority, or participates in the profits of any such contract, bargain or employment or of any work done under the authority of the local authority. I understand that that is the original disqualification. It appears to us that this consolidating Bill in respect of disqualifications for members of a local authority gets away from the status quo. Speaking on behalf of the party on this side of the House, we are very much disturbed that there is to be a change in that direction, which, in our opinion, will relax the position in relation to disqualification. If our Amendment is carried, as it may well be when I have finished, not because of my speech but because of the strong arguments which can be put forward in favour of it. Hon. Members will have to listen later to the consequential Amendments which I shall propose to insert and which I have already handed in at the Table in manuscript in a later part of Clause 59. This Amendment will become the first disqualification and will take the place of the first disqualification printed in the Bill. If hon. Members will turn for the purposes of reference to Clause 76 they will find that the disqualification now proposed here is a new disqualification. The disqualification in future will be on two counts. When a member of a local authority who is interested in a contract with his local authority sits on the council he will have to disclose to the council the fact that he is interested in that contract. Beyond that, however he has to do something else. He must not vote at all upon the issue in which he is personally interested.

These are two very definite disqualifications, but if my disqualification is inserted we merely return to the status quo. If hon. Members have noticed the reports of the Committee which studied the problem of the consolidation of Local Government and Public Health Acts, they will have seen that the Committee deals rather extensively with this problem. They point out that the status quo of disqualifying certain members from sitting on local authorities has not worked very well in the past. I have sat on a local authority for 10 years and consequently know just a little about those disqualifications. Whatever disadvantages there may be in the administration of the present law in disqualifying persons from sitting on local authorities, we on this side of the House are unwilling to do anything that would open the door to corruption in the public life of the country. I am sure that this will appeal to hon. Members of all parties in the House. This is not a party question, because there are good and bad in all parties, except in our own, of course, and everybody thinks the same of his own party.

Every Member of every party in this House wants to keep the public life of this country clean—clear from graft or corruption of any kind. We can pride ourselves on the fact that public life in this country is clean. The only doubtful part about it at the moment is the type of government we have, but I will leave that for the moment. We are fearful—I do not know whether the Minister will be able to clear our minds on the point—lest we make a mistake by changing the law in the way described in Clause 76, and, getting away from the status quo, that we might open the door to some corruption in local government in this country. That is all the argument I want to put forward. I feel sure that there is a case to be made out for retaining what we already possess. It may not have worked very well in some respects, but, I repeat, we are afraid that the new method proposed in the Bill may be worse than the old one, and consequently I move the Amendment.

5.23 p.m.

Mr. BANFIELD

As a result of my experience in local government work, I consider that the Committee would be very wise indeed to accept the Amendment. In all my 12 or 14 years' experience of local government I have always found that local councillors have been most jealous of their honour and have a keen desire to keep local public life clean. I am satisfied that the existence of this Clause has tad a remarkably good effect in that direction. To my knowledge it has kept off local councils young men who obviously, in the opinion of their neighbours might have been inclined to use their position to benefit their own business. I am very much afraid that the suggested alterations, the fact that a man could come on to a local council and could declare that he had an interest in a particular contract and could abstain from voting, are not in themselves sufficient. Take, for instance, the rather difficult position into which some councillors might be put. You might have a man as chairman of the Works and Highways Committee in business as a builder or contractor. When a contract for this particular kind of work came before the Committee of which he was Chairman, whether he abstained from voting or not, or declared his interest or not, the fact that he was on the council and was Chairman of the Committee would undoubtedly have considerable weight. Above everything else, I am very much afraid that in those circumstances there might be an opinion outside the local authority that men sought office on the local authority simply for the purpose of benefiting their own particular interests. That would be a most unfortunate thing. Any lack of confidence in the clean administration of local government would be a very bad thing indeed.

This Bill is a consolidating Bill. We have been told that it simply leaves the law as it stands, but in this particular case a direct alteration is made. I understand that the argument is that the old law along the lines of the Amendment which we now suggest has not, in some instances, worked very well, but I am inclined to think that in a matter of this kind that, whatever form of words is used or whatever precautions you may insert, there must of necessity be times when the thing will not fit foursquare with every particular case. Taking the matter over the whole of the country covering the procedings of so many councils, I think that the old law on this point which said that if a man wanted a council contract he should not be on the council at all, and should stand outside the administration of the local authority has worked well and has had a good effect in giving the electors confidence in their local administrators. There are people who are always inclined to be suspicious of local administrators—and suspicions of Members of Parliament for that matter—and, if on the whole this thing has worked well, we should not be doing very wrong if we put it into the present Bill. I am satisfied that Members in all quarters of the House agree that the country is proud of its clean local administration. I believe, in spite of any argument which I have yet heard to the contrary, that the Clause drafted in this particular way, and which up to now is the one which has governed procedure in these matters, has on the whole worked for the benefit of councils and the community, and I beg of the Minister to consider whether it would not be wise after all to accept the Amendment.

5.29 p.m.

Sir H. YOUNG

The hon. Member who spoke last challenged this Clause as a consolidation Clause. No, I disagree. He will remember that I warned the House on the Second Reading that certain provisions of the Bill were not ordinary consolidation. When you are consolidating a Bill and you have to put in two different codes which are incompatible with each other, you have to make an alteration, or it will make nonsense. An alteration is necessary here. In the first place, in order not to make nonsense, because we have two codes which to some extent are divergent, one dealing with county and

borough councils, and the other with district and parish councils, it is inevitable that we should make some alteration if we are not to produce a Bill which would be inconsistent.

Hon. Members opposite fear that this Bill will lead to some relaxation in the high level of local government. I have no such fear. They base their fear on the ground that the present law acts well. Far from it. It is extremely unsatisfactory, and I would call attention to the remarks made by the Bench in the ease of Lapish v. Braithwaite when most scathing things were said about the working of the existing law. The system now proposed to be introduced will tend to put a better face on things. It is admittedly a difficult matter to find a system which will work, a system which will shut the door far enough—but not shut it too tight—so as to keep out of public life those whom it is undesirable to admit. The difficulty is to let the right people in and to keep the wrong people out. We have not found the right system in the existing law, and this is recommended, after long and most careful consideration, as a more practical method of doing what we all desire. The matter has been exhaustively considered by the Onslow Commission, by the Chelmsford Committee, and also by the Joint Select Committee, and they all came to the same conclusion and recommended the system adopted in this Clause, and in Clause 76, which is exactly similar to the Clause we are now discussing. Hon. Members will find the reasons for this practical solution of the difficulty submitted in great detail by the Committee, and I believe they are convincing and enable me with full confidence to recommend this scheme to the Committee as the most practical which can be found for dealing with a difficult matter.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 38; Noes, 292.

Division No. 304.] AYES. [5.34 p.m.
Attlee, Clement Richard Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) John, William
Banfield, John William Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)
Batey, Joseph Dobble, William Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Edwards, Charles Kirkwood, David
Cap[...], Thomas Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Lawson, John James
Cove, William G. Griffiths, T (Monmouth, Pontypool) Leonard, William
Cripps, Sir Stafford Grundy, Thomas W. Lunn, William
Daggar, George Jenkins, Sir William Macdonald, Gordon (Ince)
McEntee, Valentine L. Smith, Tom (Normanton) Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
McGovern, John Tinker, John Joseph
Maxton, James Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. Josiah TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Parkinson, John Allen Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) Mr. D. Graham and Mr. Groves.
Price, Gabriel Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Lewis, Oswald
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Everard, W. Lindsay Lindsav, Kenneth Martin (Kilm'rnock)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lloyd, Geoffrey
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Fermoy, Lord Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst Loder, Captain J de vere
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Lumley, Captain Lawrence R.
Astbury, Lieut.-Com. Frederick Wolfe Fraser, Captain Ian Mabane, William
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Fuller, Captain A. G. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. C. G. (Partick)
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton MacAndrew, Capt J. O. (Ayr)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gibson, Charles Granville MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham)
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Glimour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Glossop, C. W. H. Macdonald, Capt P. D. (I. of W.)
Bateman, A. L. Gluckstein, Louis Halle McEwen, Captain J. H. F.
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Goff, Sir Park McKeag, William
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th,C.) Goldie, Noel B. McKie, John Hamilton
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Maclay, Hon. Joseph Paton
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Gower, Sir Robert McLean, Major Sir Alan
Blinded, James Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Boulton, W. W. Graves, Marjorie Magnay, Thomas
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Bracken, Brendan Grimston, R. V. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Briant, Frank Gritten, W. G. Howard Martin, Thomas B.
Briscoe, Capt. Richard George Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John
Broadbent, Colonel John Gunston, Captain D. W. Mills- sir frederick (Leyton, E.)
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Guy. J. C. Morrison Mills Major J. D. (New Forest)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd, Hexham) Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Milne, Charles
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k)
Browne, Captain A. C. Hamilton, Sir R.W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd) Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Buchan, John Hanbury, Cecil Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hanley, Dennis A. Moss, Captain H J
Burghley, Lord Harbord, Arthur Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J.
Butler, Richard Austen Harris, Sir Percy Munro, Patrick
Cadogan, Hon. Edward Harvey, George (Lambeth,Kenningt'n) Murray-Philipson, Hylton Ralph
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Nall, sir Joseph
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Carver, Major William H. Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Newton, Sir Douglas George C.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. North' Edward T.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston) Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Cheimsford) Nunn, William
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey division) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon William G. A.
Choriton, Alan Ernest Leofric Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Palmer, Francis Noel
Christie, James Archibald Holdsworth, Herbert Peake, Captain Osbert
Clarke, Frank Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Pearson, William G.
Clarry, Reginald George Hore-Belisha, Leslie Peat, Charles U.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Hornby, Frank Penny, Sir George
Conant, R. J. E. Horobin, Ian M. Percy, Lord Eustace
Cooke, Douglas Horsbrugh, Florence Perkins, Walter R. D.
Cooper, A. Duff Howard, Tom Forrest Petherick, M.
Copeland, Ida Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstapie)
Crooke, J. Smediey Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilst'n)
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Hurd, Sir Percy Pike' Cecil F
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Potter, John
Crossley, A. C. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. Power, Sir John cecil
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Iveagh, Countess of Procter, Major Henry Adam
Culverwell, Cyril Tom James, Wing.-Com. A. W. H. Pybus, Percy John
Dalkeith, Earl of Jamleson, Douglas Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Jesson,. Major Thomas E. Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Ratcliffe, Arthur
Davison, Sir William Henry Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) Rea, Walter Russell
Dawson, Sir Philip Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Jones, Sir G. w. H. (Stoke New'gton) Reid, David D. (County Down)
Denville, Alfred Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A F. Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Dickie, John p. Ker, J. Campbell Remer, John R
Donner, P. W. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.
Duckworth, George A. V. Kerr, Hamilton W. Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Duggan, Hubert John Knight, Holford Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Knox, Sir Alfred Robinson, John Roland
Elliston, Captain George Sampson Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Elmley, Viscount Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Ross, Ronald D.
Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Lew, Sir Alfred Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Leckie, J. A. Runge, Norah Cecil
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard Leech, Dr. J. W. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Lees-Jones, John Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)
Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Stones, James Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Stourton, Hon. John J. Wayland, Sir William A.
Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard Strauss, Edward A. Wells, Sydney Richard
Savery, Samuel Servington Strickland, Captain W. F. Weymouth, Viscount
Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Whyte, Jardlne Bell
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forlar) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Shepperson, Sir Ernest W. Summersby, Charles H. Windsor-Cilve, Lieut-Colonel George
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.(Pd'gt'n,S.) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) Wise, Alfred R.
Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) Withers, Sir John James
Somervell, Sir Donald Thompson, Luke Womersley, Walter James
Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Soper, Richard Titchfield, Major the Marquess of Wragg, Herbert
Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks)
Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. Touche, Gordon Cosmo Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. Train, John
Spencer, Captain Richard A. Turton, Robert Hugh TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H. Wallace, John (Dunfermline) Captain Austin Hudson and Dr.
Spens, William Patrick Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) Morris-Jones.
Stevenson, James Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

5.43 p.m.

Mr. TINKER

Before we part with the Clause I should like to draw attention to one point. This Clause deals with disqualifications for office as member of a local authority, and paragraph (c) provides that a person shall be disqualified for being elected—being a member of a local authority if he has within 12 months before the day of election or since his election received poor relief. That means that anyone who receives poor relief is not qualified to hold office. I do not think the Committee ought to let a Clause like that to pass without some comment, because it means penalising poverty. A man may happen to draw Poor Law relief through no fault of his own. In the economic position in which we stand to-day no one knows what may happen, and he may find himself having to get Poor Law relief, and thereby, under this Clause, he will be disqualified from holding office in any local authority. I do not think that it was ever contemplated that people should be penalised in these circumstances. A man with all the qualities of a good administrator who is driven by stress of circumstances to accept Poor Law relief is unable to accept office although he may have been elected. It puts such a man in the same category as a criminal. I do not think we should allow this provision to go through without making our protest against it. I feel keen on this matter. I do not think that we should consciously agree to placing a penalty on poverty which cannot be avoided by many people in these days.

5.47 p.m.

Mr. LOGAN

I must support my hon. Friend in his protest. As regards the existing law, this disqualification attaches to county councils, borough councils, district councils and parish councils, but not o non-county borough councils. That is n omission; but it appears to me that he Minister is anxious to make the Bill over the lot. In the year 1933 poverty should not be penalised. A man, if he is respectable man, should be allowed to it on local councils and ought not to penalised if, through stress of circumstances, over which he has no control, he as to receive Poor Law assistance. If respectable man comes forward and the people are willing to elect him then a question of poverty ought not to disfranchise him. The man who is fraudulent should be disqualified. This is a matter which, I think, must appeal to the sports-manlike qualities of every Member of the committee. We want the right people on these local councils and if the electors vote for a man then I do not think the House of Commons ought to penalise him because of his poverty. He should not be debarred from occupying any public position.

5.49 p.m.

Mr. PIKE

Before we pass this Clause hope the Minister will be able to extend s meaning in regard to the words "received poor relief." They are rather too narrow to cover all that is intended. Persons in my division have told me that they have been compelled by doctor's orders to visit their children to and three times a day when they have been receiving institutional treatment, and they have not had the necessary finance to provide the travelling expenses. They have been compelled to go to the Poor Law officer for a grant in order to meet that expenditure. If a person is to be disqualified from being a candidate for a local council because he has received relief of that nature I would not agree with it for one moment. To-day men are receiving such relief in respect of some member of the family; it is not in the nature of Poor Law relief, and, therefore, I hope the right hon. Gentleman will extend the Clause to cover such cases.

5.51 p.m.

Sir H. YOUNG

It is quite clear that this is one of those topics upon which every Member of the Committee must have the warmest feeling, and it is a matter upon which any amending legislation would certainly receive most vigorous support in this House. But it is a perfectly familiar provision of the existing law, and the anomaly in respect of the non-county boroughs is an anomaly which a codifying Bill ought to remove. I am not going to make a speech on the merits of the case, but to ask the House, since this is a familiar provision in the existing law, to register the case made today for consideration on an appropriate occasion. The hon. Member for Attercliffe (Mr. Pike) will find that medical relief is made an exception in paragraph IV. May I ask the Committee to combine, in good will, to save this great Measure for the benefit of the country as a whole? The sands are running out, and there are undoubtedly many fascinating subjects for discussion which we shall come to in the passage of the Bill, but I hope that we may join together in a spirit of mutual co-operation to do this great task of simplifying the law, and in doing so we shall deserve the gratitude of our constituents.

5.53 p.m.

Mr. R. DAVIES

The appeal of the right hon. Gentleman would find a warm

Division No. 305.] AYES. [5.58 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Barclay Harvey, C. M. Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Bateman, A. L. Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th,C.) Bracken, Brendan
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) Beit, Sir Alfred L. Briant, Frank
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley Briscoe, Capt. Richard George
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Broadbent, Colonel John
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Atholl, Duchess of Blindell, James Brown, C. W. E. (Notte., Mansfield)
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. M. Bossom, A. C. Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Boulton, W. W. Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks.,Newb'y)

response in our hearts but for the speech which he made on my Amendment when he said that we were introducing new provisions in Clause 59. Consequently, the argument that we are only codifying the law will not avail. What we cannot understand is that a person is entitled to vote in a municipal election but not entitled to be a candidate or to sit on the local authority where he has a vote. But there is a more important factor. Is there any disqualification against Members of the House of Commons? Any Member of this House may have drawn Poor Law relief. We do not know whether they have or not; but in our view it is unfair to debar a man from sitting on a local authority because of his poverty. I know the argument against us is that the Councillor may have received money from the local rates, but I should imagine hat it is better to allow him to sit on the local authority from which he has received money in Poor Law relief than to come to Parliament where re pass the laws which provide local authorities with power to pay that money. This not purely a working man's problem. I know of men who used to be in a big way of business who re complaining to-day that they are so poor that they are anxious to come within he scope of the social insurance schemes f the country. They are not entitled to health insurance benefit, to a contributory Id age pension, or to unemployment benefit; and they are as poor as some? of our working men. I object to men who have done nothing against society and who are so poor as to have to ask for Poor Law relief being debarred from sitting on Local authorities, and I shall vote against the Clause.

Question put, "That the Clause stand art of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 294; "Noes, 38.

Browne, Captain A. C. Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) Pickering, Ernest H.
Buchan, John Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Herbert, Capt. S. (Abbey Division) Pike, Cecil F.
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Potter, John
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Power, Sir John Cecil
Carver, Major William H. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Procter, Major Henry Adam
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Hornby, Frank Pybus, Percy John
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Horobin, Ian M. Raikes, Henry V. A. M.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Horsbrugh, Florence Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Chapman, Col. R.(Houghton-le-Spring) Howard, Tom Forrest Rankin, Robert
Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ratcliffe, Arthur
Christie, James Archibald Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Rea, Walter Russell
Clarry, Reginald George Hurd, Sir Percy Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Reid, David D. (County Down)
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Conant, R. J. E. Jamleson, Douglas Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Cooke, Douglas Janner, Barnett Remer, John R,
Cooper, A. Duff Jesson, Major Thomas E. Rentoul, Sir Gervals S.
Copeland, Ida Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Renwick, Major Gustav A.
Courthope, Colonel Sir George L. Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Craven-Ellis, William Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Crooke, J. Smedley Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Robinson, John Roland
Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Ker, J. Campbell Ross, Ronald D.
Cross, R. H. Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Crossley, A. C. Kerr, Hamilton W. Runge, Norah Cecil
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Knight, Molford Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Culverwell, Cyril Tom Knox, Sir Alfred Russell,Hamer Field (Sheffield,B'tslde),
Curry, A. C. Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Daikeith, Earl of Lambert, Rt. Hon. George Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)
Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery) Law, Sir Alfred Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham),
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Leckie,. J. A. Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen)
Davison, Sir William Henry Leech, Dr. J. W. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Dawson, Sir Philip Lees-Jones, John Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Denman, Hon. R D. Lennox-Boyd. A. T. Savery, Samuel Servington
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Lewis, Oswald Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Donner, P. W. Lindsay, Kenneth Martin (Kilm'rnock) Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Duckworth, George A. V. Lloyd, Geoffrey Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)
Duggan, Hubert John Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) Shepperson, Sir Ernest W.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Loder, Captain J. de Vere Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John
Elliston, Captain George Sampson Lumley, Captain Lawrence R. Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness)
Elmley, Viscount Mabane, William Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Emrys-Evans, P. V. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick) Somervell, Sir Donald
Entwistle, Cyril Fullard MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) MacDonald, Rt. Hn. J. R. (Seaham) Soper, Richard
Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E,
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) McEwen, Captain J. H. F. Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Everard, W. Lindsay McKeag, William Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. McKie, John Hamilton Spencer Captain Richard A.
Fermoy, Lord McLean, Major Sir Alan Spender-Clay, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.
Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Spens, William Patrick
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Magnay, Thomas Stanley, Hon O. F. G. (Westmorland)
Fraser, Captain Ian Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest Stevenson, James
Fuller, Captain A. G. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.)
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Stones, James
Gibson, Charles Granville Martin, Thomas B. Stourton, Hon. John J.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Strauss, Edward A.
Gledhill, Gilbert Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) Strickland, Captain W. F.
Glossop, C. W. H. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Milne, Charles Stuart, Lord C. Crichton-
Goff, Sir Park Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chlsw'k) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale Summersby, Charles H.
Gower, Sir Robert Moreing, Adrian C. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.(Pd'gt'n,S.)
Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.) Moss, Captain H. J. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas Muirhead, Lieut.-Colonel A. J. Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Graves, Marjorie Munro, Patrick Thompson,. Luke
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Murray-Philipson, Hylton Ralph Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middiesbro', W.) Nall, Sir Joseph Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Grimston, R. V. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Todd, Capt. A. J. K. (B'wick-on-T.)
Gritten, W. G. Howard Newton, Sir Douglas George C, Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Normand, Rt. Hon. Wilfrid Train, John
Gunston, Captain D. W. North, Edward T. Turton, Robert Hugh
Guy, J. C. Morrison Nunn, William Wallace, John (Dunfermline)
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. O'Connor, Terence James Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hamilton, Sir R. W.(Orkney & Zetl'nd) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Hanbury, Cecil Peake, Captain Osbert Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Hanley, Dennis A. Pearson, William G. Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Harbord, Arthur Peat, Charles U. Wayland, Sir William A.
Harvey, George (Lambeth,Kenningt'n) Penny, Sir George Wells, Sydney Richard
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Percy, Lord Eustace Weymouth, Viscount
Haslam, Henry (Horncastie) Perkins, Walter R. D. White, Henry Graham
Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Petherick, M. Whyte, Jardine Bell
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, B'nstaple) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir Arnold (Hertf'd)
Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n,Bilston) Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount Young, Ernest J. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Wise, Alfred R. Wragg, Herbert TELLERS FOR THE AVES.
Withers, Sir John James Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'v'noaks) Mr. Womersley and Dr. Morris-
Jones.
NOES.
Attlee, Clement Richard Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) McGovern, John
Banfield, John William Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Milner, Major James
Batey, Joseph Grundy, Thomas W. Parkinson, John Allen
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Jenkins, Sir William Price, Gabriel
Cape, Thomas Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Cove, William G. Kirkwood, David Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Lawson, John James Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leonard, William Williams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)
Dobbie, William Logan, David Gilbert
Edwards, Charles Lunn, William TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Macdonald, Gordon (lnce) Mr. John and Mr. Groves.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur McEntee, Valentine L.

Clause 60 ordered to stand part of the Bill