HC Deb 14 March 1933 vol 275 cc1939-42

12.18 a.m.

Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS

I beg to move, in page 1, line 18, to leave out the words "fifty thousand," and to insert instead thereof the words "forty-nine thousand six hundred."

My Amendment is to reduce the sum by £ 400. I would like to make it plain that this Amendment reduces the sum which goes to Scotland. I would like also to make it perfectly plain to any Scottish hon. Member that this is not in any sense an attack upon Scotland. It simply alters the proportion of money which is being continually balanced in favour of Scotland against the general English taxpayer. That is a thing which ought to be protested against and shown up very clearly in the House of Commons. As was explained by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland the other day, we are giving at the present time a certain amount of new money which is fixed by law and therefore cannot be discussed, and we are giving an additional £2,000 to England and £500 to Scotland. The new money is in the proportion of one to four, while the surplus is in the proportion of two to seven. The only proper proportion for Scotland—there was a mistake in the previous Act, which enabled the sum to be balanced in the wrong way, thanks to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day, or the efficiency of the hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) —is 11 to 80. I want to know whether the Minister or the Under-Secretary can give us any reason why this additional surplus sum should continue at so high a proportion beyond what has been laid down for Scotland. I ask the Under-Secretary of State whether he could not accept a reduction on this small sum of money, so that he might, at any rate, show good will towards the general taxpayer. I would like to give one additional reason for raising this point. We have been asked, as Members of Parliament, by Chancellor of the Exchequer after Chancellor of the Exchequer, to look at the Estimates, and at Measures as they come in, and, where we see needless expenditure of this kind, to use our best influences to try to get it put right. The Government which appealed to private Members to refrain from increasing expenditure is apparently quite needlessly adding to the burdens of the taxpayer.

12.21 a.m.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. Skelton)

The Committee will appreciate, I have no doubt, the general proposition of my hon. Friend that the House of Commons should scrutinise with great care every Estimate and every Vote that comes before it, and the Committee will, I am sure, sympathise with and appreciate the meticulous and anxious care of my hon. Friend on behalf of the Government. I should be the last to support any proposal that was not thoroughly in keeping with the principles of sound economy and sound legislation. It is on the latter ground, in particular, that I suggest to my hon. Friend that the Amendment that he is moving is unnecessary. The facts are, as the Committee well knows, that, in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government Act, 1929, a certain sum of what was called new money was found by Parliament for the assistance of local government, and, at the end of the first period of revision, that amount, which is determined by a variety of factors with which I need not weary the Committee, comes out for Scotland as an additional sum of £100,000, less £500. The Estimate is still provisional, and it is not possible at this date to give an absolutely fixed estimate as to the actual and accurate amount which the application of the formula will bring out. Therefore, in the Bill which is before the Committee, an additional £500 has been given in the case of the Scottish new money, and an additional sum of £2,000, in the case of the English new money.

This very small amount of elbow-room is in both cases necessary. It would unduly hamper the work of the Government and of the Departments in working out the proper figure if there were not this small margin. If it turned out that the provisional estimates were, even to the smallest extent, greater than the proposals of the Bill, we might find that we had not asked the Committee for a sufficient sum to fulfil the requirements of the Act of 1929. My hon. Friend appreciates that, because he would allow us a marginal sum of £100. As I say, the Estimate is still only provisional, and you are dealing with a sum of £100,000, I cannot therefore think that it would be wise for the Committee to restrict that marginal sum to so small a figure as £100. I ask my hon. Friend, now that he has brought the matter before the Committee and has shown such an admirable sense of the value of the Union by fortunately refusing to make any attack upon my native country of Scotland, to be so kind, in the interests of good administration, as to withdraw his Amendment.

12.25 a.m.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland has not answered the point that I put to him regarding the proportion. On the last occasion, he and the great National Government, not finding any arguments, had to appeal to the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) to save them. Remembering that, and the lateness of the hour, and after the appeal that the hon. Gentleman has made, I think that it would be kinder, rather than attack the Government, who have not got the hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs here, if I asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2 (Short title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time upon Thursday.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Tuesday evening, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Twenty-seven Minutes after Twelve o' Clock.