CLAUSE 2.—(Classes of licences.) (Hansard, 19 July 1933)

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
I beg to move, in page 4, line 9, at the end, to insert the words: or, in the case of a person operating a canal, dock, or harbour undertaking, for or in connection with that undertaking. The Sub-section provides that the holder of an "A" licence may use his authorised vehicles for or in connection with his business of carrier of goods for hire or reward. In view of the fact that many canal and dock undertakings are not themselves carriers of goods, it has been thought that it might not be possible for them to operate their vehicles under an "A" licence both for collection and delivery of goods and for the 1914 purposes of their undertakings, and the proposed words are sought to be inserted to mare it clear that they can do so. The Amendment removes any doubt as to their ability to do so. It has not been necessary to include a railway company among the undertakings referred to in the Amendment as it is clear that every railway company is in fact in business as a carrier of goods.

§ Mr. ALED ROBERTS
I beg to move, in page 5, line 5, at the end, to insert the words: (d) such number and description of motor vehicles, to be designated reserve vehicles, as is specified in the licence so that on any occasion when an authorised vehicle specified in the licence is not available for use in consequence of an accident or through having been withdrawn from use for repair a reserve vehicle may be used instead of the authorised vehicle, and shall during the period of such use be deemed to be an authorised vehicle. It is a disappointment to me to have to move this Amendment, because in Committee we had an almost exhaustive and most friendly Debate on the subject. We finished off with the usual compliments, and the Minister said that he would endeavour to introduce something of the kind. It is only because my expectations were not realised when I saw the Government Amendments that I am moving my Amendment now. It is a point of very great importance to a large number of people. As the Bill now stands, every individual motor vehicle which is to be allowed to run on the roads has to be mentioned specifically and described in the licence, and the licence holder will not be allowed in any circumstances to use any other vehicle unless it is specified individually and in detail on his licence. So far as it goes that proposal meets with no objection, but it is when we come to an emergency that some further consideration is required. The case that I am putting forward is the occasion where an authorised vehicle which is specified in the licence is not available for use, in consequence of an accident or because it has been withdrawn from use for repair, and I am asking the Minister and 1915 the House to insert in the Bill some provision by which a reserve of vehicles may be specified on the licence.
The Minister has discovered, in some way or other, that there are difficulties in the way of carrying out this proposal and I rather suspect the difficulty is the one which he mentioned in Committee, that you cannot specify a vehicle in a licence and you cannot hold a vehicle in reserve unless the vehicle exists. He presumes that if it exists it is on some licence somewhere else. As I pointed out in Committee, there are numbers of haulage contractors and perhaps private firms who will have "A" licences who endeavour to maintain their vehicles in a fit and proper condition now before the passing of this Act, and they will no doubt continue to do so after the Act comes into force. For that purpose they have spare vehicles which are used to replace portions of their regular fleet as and when they require overhauling, or in the event of an accident or when they require repair. A firm of that kind which has always run its business on those lines will not be in a position to put a vehicle on the road under this Bill unless they go to the Traffic Commissioners and get a special temporary licence for the purpose.
That is going to be a very great hardship, and a hardship all the more when we consider that the number of vehicles which can be licensed by an "A" or "B" class licence holder in the first instance is only the maximum weight of vehicles which he had during the year ending 31st March last. It is therefore obvious that the contention which the Minister had previously made that such a person can ask for some extra vehicles to be specified cannot be carried out. Anyone applying for a licence, especially an "A" or "B" licence, is not going to get that licence simply by walking into the office and asking for it. It is obvious from the proposals in later Clauses, especially Clause 10, that there is going to be a great deal of opposition in many cases, and it must be clear that unless a man can put forward the minimum requirements he is not going to get any margin on his licence. The actual details as to how my proposal could be worked out are not very difficult. They are dealt with daily by insurance companies. The Minister under Clause 22 (d) could easily 1916 make regulations as regards the use of licence plates. If that is not done the temptation is going to be to keep vehicles on the road when they should not be on the road, and it will accentuate the difficulty of haulage contractors in regard to the replacement of vehicles.

§ Mr. MALLALIEU
I beg to second the Amendment.

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
It is perfectly true, as the hon. Member has said, that we discussed this matter at some length in Committee in the most amicable manner. It was, in fact, the most amicable Committee which ever sat, and we are grateful to the hon. Member and his friends for the way they treated us. But in spite of the good feeling which exists between us the Government cannot agree to the Amendment. Its object is to include amongst the authorised vehicles a number of vehicles which can be kept in reserve and used by the operator when some of his vehicles are out of action by being overhauled or for some other reason. We believe that every efficient operator will carry a reserve of vehicles to meet a contingency of this kind, and the licensing authorities will have this in mind when hearing applications for licences. The operator will allow for reserve vehicles when he makes his application under the heading of vehicles which are in his possession or which will come within his hiring margin. In these circumstances the Amendment is not required, and if it was adopted it would put the licensing authorities in some difficulty because they would have no control over the quantum of vehicles on the roads as a whole. They would not know how many vehicles there were on the roads. I hope the hon. Member will withdraw the Amendment.

§ Captain STRICKLAND
I support the Amendment from a purely business point of view. The Parliamentary Secretary has expressed a pious hope that the licensing authorities will take into consideration the fact that hauliers will require a larger number of vehicles than those specified on the road at any one time, but whatever may be the kindly intentions of the Government, unless they are prepared to issue instructions to the licensing authority that they shall take the actual number of vehicles for one 1917 period, that is a year, as laid down in the Bill and license them, plus a margin of vehicles, it will not matter very much what are the kindly intentions of the Minister of Transport but will depend on the view the licensing authorities take. When a man applies for a licence he has to state the greatest weight he carried during the previous 12 months and he will be awarded so many licences to cover a similar amount. The amount of tonnage which is produced before the licensing authorities will be the tonnage which he found it necessary to keep on the roads, and if an instruction was given that over and above that amount there should he a reserve fleet of vehicles to take the place of disabled vehicles there would be very little complaint. We shall have to administer an Act of Parliament laid down in cold hard print, without any of that warm feeling which existed in the Committee upstairs, where it was all give on one side and all take on the other. I submit, as a business proposition, that the suggestion is perfectly reasonable, that over and above this amount there should he a right on the part of haulage contractors to send out at a moment's notice a reserve of vehicles, otherwise he might be tempted to risk a breakdown of a vehicle because of having no other vehicle to take its place unless he goes before the licensing authorities for a fresh licence for the additional vehicle. This Amendment should be accepted by the Government from a business point of view, and I hope the House will show its interest in the business side of this matter rather than in the pious hopes of the Parliamentary Secretary that the licensing authorities will take a certain line of action in the matter.