HC Deb 09 February 1933 vol 274 cc326-30
1. Mr. BATEY

asked the Minister of Labour the number of cases for transitional payment dealt with by the commissioners in the county of Durham since their appointment; the number of cases where the benefit has been stopped or reduced; and the amount of money saved up to the latest available date?

6. Mr. LAWSON

asked the Minister of Labour the estimated savings in transitional payments as the result of the appointment of commissioners in the county of Durham?

The MINISTER of LABOUR (Sir Henry Betterton)

Determinations were given by the commissioners for the administrative county of Durham on 44,515 applications for transitional payments submitted to them between 5th December, 1932, and 7th January, 1933. In 10,253 cases payment was allowed at rates lower than the maximum benefit rates, and in 2,844 cases the needs of the applicants were held not to justify payment being made, the remaining 31,418 being granted at the full rate. The re- view of determinations given by the public assistance committee had not been completed by 7th January, but it is estimated that the expenditure on transitional payments from the beginning of December up to that date was about £15,000 less than if all the determinations current during the period had been given by the public assistance committee in accordance with their practice prior to December.

Mr. BATEY

Seeing that in most of these cases the amounts have been reduced by the Commissioners, what appeal have the applicants in such cases?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I have no more power in this matter than I have over the public assistance committees.

Mr. BATEY

Surely, where the amounts have been so much reduced, the people concerned have a right of appeal somewhere?

Sir H. BETTERTON

Yes. The ultimate decision rests in the hands of the Commissioners themselves.

Mr. LAWSON

Will the right hon. Gentleman answer my question of yesterday, as to what will be the estimated annual saving?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I cannot give an answer to that question, because we have only had six weeks' experience. You cannot deduce from the cost in that period that the amount for the whole year will be that sum multiplied by 12.

Mr. LAWSON

Are we to understand from that answer that an amount of £15,000 has been taken from these people?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I do not understand what the hon. Member means. What I said was: the amount was about £15,000 less than if all the determinations current during that period had been given by the public assistance committee in accordance with their practice prior to December.

Mr. LAWSON

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that £15,000 has been taken from an area which is known to have been one of the worst distressed areas in the country during the last few years?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I cannot enter into an argument with the hon. Member. I have here particulars of cases, but I will quote only one, the case of a man, his wife and four sons. The sons are engaged in a coal business and own three lorries. They estimate their net profits at £3 a week. The claimant owns seven houses, six let at gross rentals of £1 18s. a week and the seventh occupied by the family. The houses are free from mortgage.

Mr. LAWSON

Surely, one case does not justify taking £15,000 from the people in an area like that?

Mr. BATEY

I beg to give notice that, owing to the very unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I shall raise this question on the Adjournment of the House tonight.

3. Mr. BATEY

asked the Minister of Labour the cost of the administration of the means test in the county of Durham for the months of December, 1931, and January, 1932, and also for December, 1932, and January, 1933?

Sir H. BETTERTON

The administrative cost under the commissioners was about £4,550 for December, 1932, and £4,800 for January, 1933, in addition to non-recurrent charges amounting to £2,085. I have no comparable figures for December, 1931, or January, 1932.

Mr. BATEY

Could not the Minister get the figures for 1931–32, if he tried?

Sir H. BETTERTON

No, I cannot get them. Those were the costs incurred by the public assistance committee, and I cannot get them.

Mr. LAWSON

This is a very important question.

Mr. SPEAKER

There are a great number of questions on the Order Paper.

4. Mr. LAWSON

asked the Minister of Labour if he is now in a position to state the estimated annual cost of administration of transitional payments by the commissioners in the county of Durham?

Sir H. BETTERTON

In the reply to the hon. Member for Spennymoor (Mr. Batey) I have given the cost of administration of transitional payments by the commissioners in the county of Durham in the two months following their appointment. I am unable at this stage accurately to forecast the annual cost, but I anticipate that with further experience it may prove possible to reduce the present rate of expenditure.

Mr. LAWSON

Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to give us the annual cost?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I answered that question a moment ago. You cannot give an estimate of the annual cost based on an experience of only six weeks.

Mr. LAWSON

May I take it from the answer that that represents for December and January an actual increase in total amount. of the cost of administration?

Sir H. BETTERTON

No.

Mr. LAWSON

It is very important that we should know the cost of administration.

7. Mr. KIRKWOOD

asked the Minister of Labour what reply he has returned to the resolution passed unanimously by the Dumbarton Town Council condemning the means test, and asking that it be taken off the Statute Book of this country?

Sir H. BETTERTON

A resolution in this sense of 14th September last was sent to the Scottish Office and has been transmitted to my Department. The Government's position in this matter is still as indicated in my reply to the hon. Member on 27th October last and by the Prime Minister on 25th October.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

The reply goes back to October. We have passed through one of the worst winters ever experienced and therefore the conditions are now worse.

HON. MEMBERS

Order!

Mr. SPEAKER

Will the hon. Member please get to his supplementary question.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I am getting to my supplementary. The conditions are worse, and I want to know if the right hon. Gentleman is having regard to the fact that the resolution has been signed by over 3,000 citizens of Dumbarton and unanimously endorsed by the Dumbarton Town Council?

Sir H. BETTERTON

Yes. I am aware of that, and I have also read the petition which the hon. Member was good enough to send to me.

13. Mr. THORNE

asked the Minister of Labour whether, as the Oldham Public Assistance Committee has decided to refuse to administer the means test, he intends taking any action in the matter of appointing a commissioner; and, in the event of no commissioner being appointed and the public assistance committee still refusing to administer the means test, what action will be taken?

Sir H. BETTERTON

My information is that the county borough of Oldham are continuing to carry out their statutory duties. The hon. Member's questions therefore do not arise.

Mr. THORNE

Is it not the case that the Department has decided that in the event of a public assistance committee refusing to operate the means test they must go?

Sir H. BETTERTON

I know of no such decision In the event of people not carrying out their statutory duties other measures have to be taken, but in this case I have nothing more to say than that they are carrying out their duties.