HC Deb 12 December 1933 vol 284 cc310-25

9.37 p.m.


I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out the word "a" and to insert instead thereof the words "the bacon."

I very much regret the absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland), who was to have moved this Amendment, and I am sure that the Committee particularly regret the cause of that absence. When the Minister moved the Second Reading of the Bill on Thursday last he said it was a Bill in furtherance of the pigs and bacon schemes which were passed by the House on 28th June, and he explained that certain dislocation had occurred during the first contract period under these schemes. He told us that the curers found that they had on hand in the first contract period, instead of a £3,000,000 proposition which was anticipated, a £5,000,000 proposition. He told us that the curers had agreed to pay a price of 12s. per score and that they found they would be unable to make a profit.

Every Member of the Committee will understand that difficulties must arise in the initial stages of such a scheme. It would be foolish to propound the theory that these schemes ought to have been perfect from the commencement and no one desires to do or to say anything which would cripple these schemes at the outset. The point which I wish to raise covers practically all the Amendments which stand on the Paper in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall and myself. That point, shortly, is that this Bill ought to deal only with the specific purpose explained by the Minister on Thursday last. While appreciating the difficulties which must arise in the initial period of such a scheme, we cannot understand why this Bill has not been drafted so as to deal with the specific problem of pigs and bacon. As the Bill stands—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—it appears that these provisions could be applied to any and every scheme.




These provisions include provisions as to compensation; they give the power to one board to borrow from another; they give the power to one board to guarantee loans to another, and they give power to private individuals to make loans to a board. We see danger in the extension of these provisions beyond the particular purpose for which the Minister said the Bill was intended. For instance, as regards compensation, there is a great extension of the powers given under the 1931 Act. That Act gave compensation to a producer within a scheme who could prove that he had sustained loss because of the opera- tion of that scheme. The power given by this Bill is much wider. A producer can be compensated for a loss caused by a scheme of which he is not a member. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) on Thursday seemed to be under some misapprehension as to the powers given by the Bill. I think the Minister made it clear that those powers are permissive but even if they are permissive they are none the less dangerous. If these provisions are to be applied to any and every scheme in which they are considered necessary, the result may be to encourage a certain amount of slackness and slackness will lead to an increased price of the commodities concerned. Losses must eventually be handed on to the consumer. If the Bill goes through in its present form it will allow transfers of money from one board to another, and indeed, when I first read the Bill, I could not help thinking that the Minister would be wise to appoint a holding board to hold shares in all these different boards so that at any time he could see at a glance how the finances of the whole arrangement stood. The power of "swopping" finances—to use a Yorkshire word—between one board and another is a grave and dangerous power.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to accept this Amendment, which with consequential Amendments would limit the Bill to the specific purpose outlined by him in his Second Reading speech. If he cannot do so, will the right hon. Gentleman tell the Committee, has he in mind some suspicion that it may be necessary for several boards to use such powers? In that case, will he have to come to the House of Commons on some future occasion to ask for a larger sum than the £625,000 dealt with in the Financial Memorandum. I hope he will give the Committee an assurance that when this Measure is put into operation it will not mean extending the liability of the Treasury in this respect on a future occasion, and I trust that at least we shall have some more explanation of the proposals than we had on Thursday last.


I should like to ask the hon. Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth) whether I am right in assuming that the series of Amendments standing in his name and in that of the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) to Clauses 1, 2, and 4 really form one large, compre- hensive Amendment. I understand them to do so, but I should like to be confirmed in that opinion.


That is so, Captain Bourne.

9.46 p.m.


I am sure, in the first place, that we must all regret the absence of the right hon. Member for North Cornwall (Sir F. Acland) and sympathise very deeply with him in the cause of that absence. As to the Amendment actually moved by my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth), it is correct, as he supposed, that the terms in which the Clause is drawn enable these provisions to be applied generally, and the series of Amendments which he has brought forward would require that they should only be confined to this one case and this one particular emergency. I hope that he will not find it necessary to press this Amendment, and I hope to be able to explain to him the reasons why we drew the Bill in these general terms. He will remember that in moving the Second Reading of the Bill I specifically pointed out that this Measure dealt with the general problem of modifying a price which had been come to by the consent of two parties. I am of opinion, and we are all in the department of the opinion, that that is a power which might easily require to be exercised and would be of great advantage to both parties to be exercised in the case possibly of other agricultural products. Let me read to the House what I said on Second Reading: There are many very interesting features in these proposals and it would be of interest to those concerned with agricultural organisation to examine them more closely. The question of the adjustment of a contract price, with which agricultural organisations have struggled repeatedly and which finds its chief example in the contract price in the case of 6ugar-beet is here again tackled and I think not unsuccessfully."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th December, 1933; col. 1916, Vol. 283.] I wanted to point out that we were dealing with the general as well as with the particular problem. I ask the House to consider that in the present state of rapid fluctuation of the market, a long-term contract concluded at a fixed price has, of course, great advantages, but involves both sides in possibly serious disadvantages. A long-term contract between producers and processors may be subject to such fluctuations in the price of the finished product as to make a bargain driven in good faith shown by subsequent events to be in the interests of neither party to enforce rigidly.

Let me again give the case of sugar-beet, where the contracts for beet used to be on a fixed price basis, so that the grower knew in advance the prices he would get. When sugar prices fell in 1931, one group of factories abandoned the fixed-price contract and offered a co-operative contract. The further fall in the world price of sugar this year has led all the factories to adopt the principle of the co-operative contract, under which the producer receives the minimum price, plus an agreed proportion of the factory's profits. It might easily be that a contract come to in good faith between two parties without the power to enter into any such alteration as that might involve one party in terrific losses before the contract had expired, and, therefore, it is to the advantage of these schemes as a whole that the House should empower the promoters of a scheme when bringing forward a scheme to insert in it words enabling them to pursue such a process if it is to the advantage of both Board A and Board B.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford examined it rather from the point of taking, but there is also the point of giving, and Board A is not likely to give away money to Board B. Rather is it likely to withhold any assistance from Board B unless it is assured that Board B is really on the point of very serious financial catastrophe. [Interruption.] I hope my hon. Friend will not pursue that line too far. It is a difficult subject, and I am anxious to explore it in concert with the Committee and not to engage in what I might call the cut and thrust of debate, because the subject is so novel that what we say here may very easily lay down principles upon which people will operate in the years long after this particular emergency has passed away. I say that Board A is not likely to hand money over to Board B out of light-heartedness or a desire to injure the prospects of its own constituents. Rather, I say, would it be likely to keep its hand on its money too long than to distribute it too lavishly.

I think the safeguards are quite sufficient, and I think the emergency which is proved necessary in this case is not perhaps the only case in which such an emergency will arise. I do not think the making of this power general can possibly do any harm, and I can conceive of instances where the power might be used. I hope very much, therefore, that my hon. Friend will not find it necessary to press his Amendment and will confine his objection to raising the case, which certainly ought to be raised, that there should be no slackness, but that with that warning he will be able to let the Clause stand as it is.

9.53 p.m.


This does not seem to us a very substantial point, because, as the right hon. Gentleman justly said, a Minister who is being given these large dictatorial powers for the reorganisation of an industry must, of course, be equipped with emergency powers of this sort, so that he can intervene here or there, rapidly, when he finds his scheme falling to the ground because of the lack of finances.


I am afraid my hon. and learned Friend is under some slight misapprehension. The Bill gives no power whatever to the Minister to intervene, and, far from making an emergency thing, it seeks to regularise and place into the general statutory provisions a power which otherwise might have been exercised in that dictatorial way which my hon. and learned Friend so very justly fears.


The right hon. Gentleman cannot quite get away with that, because I was quoting his own words when he said that this Bill should be armed to cover other cases, so that when an emergency arises the powers will be there.


The powers of the board.


Of the board and also, I presume, the powers he has under Clause 4.


When we come to Clause 4 the hon. and learned Member will see that I am bound and tied so that the power does not run for more than 12 months, and none of us expect a revolution to come about so rapidly as that.


Some people seem to think that the right hon. Gentleman has started it already. I gather that some of his own followers think so, from what one can read. But, seriously, this seems to be a case where there is every reason for leaving these powers, if they are going to be granted at all, to cover all boards and not merely to cover a particular individual case; and we, therefore, shall not support this Amendment.


I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9.55 p.m.


I beg to move, in page 1, line 15, at the end, to add the words: Provided that, notwithstanding anything in paragraph (c) in Part II. of the First Schedule to the principal Act, sub-section (8) of section one of the principal Act shall apply to any amendment of a scheme under this section. This Amendment will mean little or nothing to hon. Members who have not studied the principal Act and the Bill now before the Committee. The point of the Amendment will not be simple for any other than the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill or any hon. and learned Member who has given some little study to this proposal. The Amendment means that while, as has been stated by the Minister and by my hon. Friend the Member for South Bradford (Mr. Holdsworth), Clause 1 is purely permissive, it does permit any board to amend its scheme after having followed a certain line of procedure, and the scheme can be so amended as to enable the board to pay compensation for any loss effected by the operation of the scheme under the terms of Clause 1. The Amendment is designed to compel the right hon. Gentleman, where a scheme has been amended and all the ordinary procedure has been followed, to come to the House with a draft scheme and to receive affirmative Resolutions in both Houses of Parliament, after which he will make his Order giving effect to the draft scheme which has been assented to by both Houses. I hope that the intention of the Amendment is now made clear, and I want to urge upon the Minister the reason for it.

We desire to retain Parliamentary control over the unlimited sums of money that may be advanced to one or other of the boards free of interest during the first year's operation of these schemes. Clause 1, as was stated last week, is very important, and there can be no denying the possibility of longdated contracts between pig producers and bacon factors. The same thing may apply to milk producers and the producers of cheese or butter. It may be, for instance, that pig producers, once the potato scheme is in existence, will enter into contracts with potato producers for large quantities of potatoes for feeding purposes. The interlocking of all these agricultural schemes implies, at least in the initial stages, that great care will have to be exercised by all the boards and by the Minister in charge of agriculture. But that is equally true with regard to ordinary Members of Parliament. While we are providing the right hon. Gentleman with emergency powers under which he has at his disposal £625,000 to enable any registered producer operating under any scheme to receive compensation for any sort of loss that may occur, it is the duty of every Member of the House to see that, once a scheme is amended, it ought to come before the House of Commons to receive its approval, since it possibly implies the loan of a large sum of money to tide one or other of two boards over a preliminary period.

The right hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that he had not exercised any emergency powers. It seems to us that he has, either by whispers or by some other means, guaranteed to bacon producers that the pig producers shall come to their rescue, even though it means a new Parliamentary Measure to extend the scheme of 1931 and 1933. He has already, therefore, without receiving the assent of the House, gone to the assistance of bacon curers. With that we do not disagree. He is likely in future to go to the rescue of producers of butter or cheese or other dairy products. We do not object to that. What we do object to, and I think the right hon. Gentleman as a good Parliamentarian will agree, is merely to pass a Measure which enables any and every marketing board to extend their schemes so as to enable them to borrow hundreds of thousands of rounds from the Government free of interest, without Parliament having any say at all. Because of the vital importance and novelty of Clause 1, we think Parliament is entitled to reserve the power which it now holds to examine every draft scheme before giving its approval. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see the wisdom, first, of securing a quick passage for his Measure to help agriculture help itself, and, secondly, to preserve for Parliament what is undoubtedly its right.

10.3 p.m.


I must compliment my hon. Friend on not only being able to draft this Amendment, but on being able to explain it lucidly to the Committee. It is a difficult subject, and he made it so clear that we were all able to follow it without reference, as it were, to the chapter and verse of the holy writ in the Act of 1931. All that the procedure now to be followed says is that if no one raises any objection and no inquiry is held, it is not necessary to have an affirmative Resolution. If anybody raises any objection an inquiry is automatically held, and then, of course, an affirmative Resolution will be necessary. I think it is unnecessary to say that if, in all the transactions of the board, no objection is raised by anybody, we must bring the matter to the attention of both Houses of Parliament and have two affirmative Resolutions. There is a danger of overloading the attention of Parliament with a multitude of business, and we should avoid bringing things before Parliament unless they are necessary. It is right that Parliament, as the final court of the nation, should decide after the matter has been canvassed outside and a case has arisen, but I do think, in such a case as is here envisaged, it is a sound procedure that where no objection whatever of any kind from any person has been made it should be allowed to go forward without the necessity of having it specifically resolved. I ask my hon. Friend on that understanding, and on the fact that the Act of 1931, his own Act, laid down that uncontested Amendments should not be the subject of affirmative Resolutions, to allow this procedure to remain. I do not think it has done any harm in the past or will do any in the future.

10.6 p.m.


I do not think we can accept the right hon. Gentleman's reply, because the whole gravamen of my hon. Friend's argument was that this Measure is introducing such a very new matter. It is not any argument to say that as the original Act allowed unopposed amendments to go through without the assent of this House therefore, when we come to this entirely new subject matter, that is, the arrangement of those things for which compensation is to be paid, we should be prepared to abandon any question of looking into that also. The right hon. Gentleman will agree that when schemes are put forward proposing wholesale compensation for members it is not very likely that anyone will oppose them. One does not expect producers under either the one board—or under another board who are contemplating getting like assistance in times of emergency—to object to them. I am not criticising whether the assistance is necessary or not. These amendments will say that the board in such classes of case as may be specified are to pay compensation to their registered producers in respect of certain losses. Clearly, the registered producers will not object, because they are to be provided with payment which they otherwise would not get, and it is not likely that anyone else will object.


Surely my hon. and learned Friend is overlooking the fact that the persons from whom the money will come will be likely to object. If they thought it was a disadvantageous transaction they would be the first to object. This is not a procedure by which boards extract money from the Treasury, public funds. This is a way in which boards can make an arrangement one with another, and if there were anything disadvantageous in the transaction a class of persons who would object would be called into being simultaneously with the class who benefit.


The right hon. Gentleman is not really right in that statement. He has told us that this is a permissive Measure. What the scheme can say is that in such-and-such a case a registered producer may receive compensation—may receive compensation; it does not specify how any money shall be raised to pay the compensation. It merely is permissive—in certain classes of case he may receive compensation. Getting the money to compensate him with is something to be done afterwards. The amendment which is contemplated here says: In such class of oases as may be specified in the scheme. That is the specification only of the cases in which registered producers may be compensated, that is the point when the proposal comes up to be put into a scheme. For instance, in the egg marketing scheme registered producers may be compensated for loss on sale, for more expensive packing materials or for anything else that might happen to be put in. It is that extension of the powers of the 1931 Act—and the undefined extension as it is in this Clause 1—which makes us feel that the definition ought to be put under the control of Parliament. As it is here it is a perfectly wide and open door: In such class of cases as may be specified in the scheme. It is the scheme which is going to define the cases in which compensation is to be given, and we think that, especially in the initial stages, when the first few Measures come up for consideration, that it is very advisable that this House should have the opportunity of criticism, and perhaps even of making valuable suggestions as to how things should be arranged.

I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to think we are trying to stop compensation being given, but we want these schemes, if they are going to be worked, to be as successful as possible. The more successful they are the better. We believe we add to their success and to the confidence of the country and the House in them if this House retains its power and right to discuss, especially in the earlier schemes, the class of cases which may be specified for compensation. We can get rid of the suggestion that boards are likely to pay wholesale compensation to their registered producers when it is not either deserved or desired. We beg the right hon. Gentleman to give us an assurance that these earlier Orders especially—indeed, all the Orders—shall come before the House before they actually become law, as any contentious amendment would naturally do as the law now stands. Schemes for distributing compensation to registered producers—apart altogether from the raising of the money—are not likely to meet with any material opposition, and therefore it is quite possible that they may be unopposed amendments and in the ordinary course will not come before the House, and therefore we want the special provision put in that in these classes of cases they shall come before the House.

10.12 p.m.


I am very much obliged to my hon. and learned Friend for the clarity and courtesy with which he has put his point. It still seems to me, however, that there is a certain danger of overloading Parliament. My hon. Friend now says, "It is clear that no money is passing, it is true that no bargain, overt or covert, has been entered into between two boards, it is true that this power is only enabling, but we see such hazards in these enabling words that we think their operation should be specifically brought before Parliament." There, I am afraid, is the difference of opinion between us. I think that if nobody objects to them—and it is not only the registered producers who can raise an objection, it is. anybody, it is my hon. and learned Friend—


I have not the money.


No money is needed for this purpose, only skill and power of argument and dialectical force, and in all those things my hon. and learned Friend is wealthy indeed. My hon. and learned Friend said the people who are likely to benefit are not likely to bring it before the notice of Parliament, and that may be so, but any of the other 40,000,000 inhabitants of this island can bring it under the operation of the Bill and the Minister would then be bound to bring it before Parliament. If no one of the producers, no one of the distributors or retailers and no one of the general public finds it necessary for any cause to bring it before a public inquiry, I do not think there is any great danger of assuming that the proposition is fairly sound and need not be brought before this Imperial House of Parliament. On those grounds, I very much hope my hon. Friend will not press his Amendment.

10.15 p.m.


I am very much afraid that, much as we appreciate the efforts of the right hon. Gentleman to satisfy us, we shall be obliged to carry the Amendment to a Division. We shall do so not because we fear that the right hon. Gentleman will loan money to boards for schemes that are unworthy, or that financial transactions of an uneconomic character will take place. We are con- vinced that ordinary amendments to the schemes that are in existence ought not to come to the House, and we are satisfied that a board's constitution, and all its day-to-day and week-to-week experience, will ensure that the boards can amend their schemes, with the oversight of the Minister, the retailer, the consumer and other sections of the community, without worrying Parliament at all. In this particular case, however, it is a question of a very special amendment of the scheme, that is required for a very special purpose.

The right hon. Gentleman knows that Clause 1 is intimately connected with Clause 5, and that Clause 5 turns initial expenses into losses for a period of one year. There are only four marketing schemes in existence, and, if the four marketing boards of pigs, bacon, milk and hops wish to take advantage of this Measure when it has become a Statute, they will merely amend their schemes, stating the sort and kind of case for which compensation would be provided. I cannot conceive that any hon. Member who looks forward to the success of those schemes would hold up any draft order that might be laid before the House. The right hon. Gentleman says that Parliament does not want overstocking with orders and draft schemes and that kind of thing, but I would remind him that we get quite a few orders from the Tariff Advisory Committee. They come like water running downhill, almost, in a ceaseless run.

We are not anxious to multiply that sort of thing, but we think that because there are only four marketing boards in existence, if a special amendment for the special purpose of taking advantage of this very special and novel Bill is made, Parliament would not dare to hold up any draft Order or scheme of that kind. We have no desire to interfere with the normal amendments that are discovered to be necessary in schemes as the result of experience, but we think in this case that we are justified in asking that Parliament should have the privilege of control, although that control might not have to be exercised.

Question put, "That those words be there added."

The House divided: Ayes, 50; Noes, 231.

Division No. 20.] AYES. [9.26 p.m.
Adams. Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Dickie. John P. Hume, Sir George Hopwood
Albery, Irving James Drewe, Cedric Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd) Duckworth, George A. V. Hurd, Sir Percy
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Duggan, Hubert John Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H.
Aske, Sir Robert William Eastwood, John Francis Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe)
Atholl, Duchess of Edmondson, Major A. J. James, Wing Com. A. W. H.
Baldwin-Webb. Colonel J. Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Jesson, Major Thomas E.
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Ellisfon, Captain George Sampson Joel, Dudley J. Barnato
Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Eimley, Viscount Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Erskine-Boist, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West)
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) Falle, Sir Bertram G. Ker, J. Campbell
Belt, Sir Alfred L. Fermoy, Lord Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Fleming, Edward Lascelles Knox, Sir Alfred
Blindell, James Foot. Dingle (Dundee) Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton
Borodale, Viscount Foot. Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.)
Bossom, A. C. Fraser, Captain Ian Leckie, J. A.
Boulton, W. W. Fremantle, Sir Francis Leech, Dr. J. W.
Bowater. Col. Sir T. Vansittart Ganzonl, Sir John Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Gillett, Sir George Masterman Levy. Thomas
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Lindsay, Kenneth Martin (Kilm'rnock)
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Gluckstein, Louis Halle Lindsay, Noel Ker
Broadbent, Colonel John Gold[...] Noel B. Lloyd. Geoffrey
Brocklebank, C E. R. Goodman. Colonel Albert W. Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rI'd, N.) Loder, Captain J. de Vere
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Graves, Marjoria Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Grenfell, E. C. (City of London) MacDonald. Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham)
Browne, Captain A. C. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John MacDonad, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Burghley, Lord Guinness. Thomas L. E. B. McKie. John Hamilton
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Gunston, Captain D. W. McLean. Major Sir Alan
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Guy, J. C. Morrison McLean. Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Carver, Major William H. Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Macmillan, Maurice Harold
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) Magnay, Thomas
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hammersley, Samuel S. Maitland, Adam
Chapman. Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Hanbury, Cecil Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Christie, James Archibald Hanley, Dennis A. Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Clayton, Sir Christopher Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Cochrane. Commander Hon. A. D. Harbord, Arthur Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Collins, Rt. Hon. Sir Godfrey Hartland, George A. Marsden, Commander Arthur
Colman, N. C. O. Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kenningt'n) Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon. Totnes) Mayhew. Lieut.-Colonel John
Cook, Thomas A. Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Mills. Major J. D. (New Forest)
Craven-Ellis. William Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Milne, Charles
Crooke, J. Smedley Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale
Crookshank. Col. C. de Windt (Bootle) Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Monsell. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Cross, R. H. Holdsworth. Herbert Morrison, William Shepherd
Crossley, A. C. Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Munro. Patrick
Cruddas. Lieut. Colonel Bernard Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) Nail-Cain, Hon. Ronald
Curry, A. C. Hore-Belisha, Leslie Nation, Brigadier, General J. J. H.
Davies, Maj. Geo, F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Hornby, Frank O'Connor. Terence James
Denman. Hon. R. D. Horsbrugh, Fiorence O'Donovan Dr. William James
Danville, Alfred Howard, Tom Forrest O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G. A. Roberts, Aled (Wrexham) Stones, James
Palmer, Francis Noel Ropner, Colonel, L. Stourton, Hon. John J.
Patrick, Colin M. Rosbotham, Sir Thomas Strauss, Edward A.
Peake. Captain Osbert Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) Strickland, Captain W. F.
Pearson, William G. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F.
Peat, Charles U. Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside) Templeton, William P.
Penny. Sir George Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Petherick, M. Rutherford, Sir John Hugo (Liverp't) Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Salt, Edward W. Thompson, Luke
Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bliston) Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart Thorp, Linton Theodore
Pickering, Ernest H. Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Pike. Cecil F. Scone, Lord Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Potter, John Selley, Harry R. Wallace, John (Duniermilne)
Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. Shaw, Helen B, (Lanark, Bothwell) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsened)
Procter, Major Henry Adam Shaw, Captain William T. (Fortar) Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Pybus, Percy John Shepoerson, Sir Ernest W. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Radford, E. A. Skelton, Archibald Noel Wedderburn, Henry Jamas Scrymgeour
Raikes, Henry V. A. M. Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) Wells, Sydney Richard
Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) Weymouth, Viscount
Ramsay. T. B. W. (Western Isles) Smith. R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Whyte, Jardine Bell
Ramsden, Sir Eugene Somervell, Sir Donald Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Rankin, Robert Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Rea, Walter Russell Soper, Richard Wills, Wilfrid D.
Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Reid, David D. (County Down) Spencer, Captain Richard A. Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Reld, William Allan (Derby) Spens, William Patrick
Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U. Stevenson, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Rickards, George William Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert Ward
and Commander Southby.
Attlee, Clement Richard Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Mainwaring, William Henry
Banfield, John William Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Maxton, James.
Batey, Joseph Grundy, Thomas W. Milner, Major James
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Owen. Major Goronwy
Buchanan. George Hicks, Ernest George Parkinson, John Allen
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jenkins, Sir William Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Cove, William G. Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Thorne, William James
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jones. Morgan (Caerphilly) Tinker, John Joseph
Daggar, George Kirkwood, David Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Davies. David L. (Pontypridd) Lawson, John James Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leonard, William Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Edwards, Charles Lunn. William Wilmot, John
Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) McEntee, Valentine, L.
George, Megan A. Lloyd (Anglesea) McGovern, John TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) Mr. John and Mr. G. Macdonald.

Question put, and agreed to.

Division No. 21.] AYES. [10.18 p.m.
Attlee, Clement Richard Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Banfield, John William Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) Maxton, James
Batey, Joseph Hicks, Ernest George Milner, Major James
Buchanan, George Holdsworth, Herbert Nathan, Major H. L.
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jenkins, Sir William Parkinson, John Allen
Cove, William G. John, William Pickering, Ernest H.
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Rea, Walter Russell
Curry, A. C. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Roberts, Aled (Wrexham)
Daggar, George Kirkwood, David Smith, Tom (Normanton)
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Lawson, John James Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leonard, William White, Henry Graham
Edwards, Charles Logan, David Gilbert Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) Lunn, William Williams, Thomas (York. Don Valley)
Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) McEntee, Valentine L. Wood, Sir Murdoch McKenzie (Banff)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) McGovern, John
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Mainwaring, William Henry Mr. C. Macdonald and Mr. Groves.
Grundy, Thomas W. Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Erskine-Boist, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) Leighton, Major B. E. P.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Fermoy, Lord Lindsay, Noel Ker
Albery, Irving James Fleming, Edward Lascelles Lloyd, Geoffrey
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) Ford, Sir Patrick J. Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.)
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Fraser, Captain Ian Loder, Captain J. de Vere
Aske, Sir Robert William Fremantle, Sir Francis Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander
Atholl, Duchess of Ganzonl, Sir John MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Gibson, Charles Granville Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Gillett, Sir George Masterman McKie. John Hamilton
Banks, Sir Reginald Mitchell Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt Hon. Sir John McLean, Major Sir Alan
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Gledhill, Gilbert McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Glossop, C. W. H. Macmillan, Maurice Harold
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Gluckstein, Louis Halie Magnay, Thomas
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'th, C.) Glyn, Major Raiph G. C. Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest
Beit, Sir Alfred, L. Goldie, Noel B. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M.
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Blindell, James Graham, Sir F. Fergus (C'mb'rl'd, N.) Marsden, Commander Arthur
Boothby, Robert John Graham Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hen. John Mayhew, Lieut. Colonel John
Borodale, Viscount Grimston, R. V. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Bossom, A. C. Guest, Capt. Rt. Hon. F. E. Milne, Charles
Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Moison A, Hugh Elsdale
Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Gunston, Captain D, W. Monsell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres
Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Guy, J. C. Morrison Morris-Jones. Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Broadbent, Colonel John Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Morrison, William Shephard
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hammersley, Samuel S. Munro, Patrick
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd, Hexham) Hanbury, Cecil Nall-Cain, Hon. Ronald
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hanley, Dennis A. Nation. Brigadier-General J. J. H.
Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry O'Donovan, Dr. William James
Browne, Captain A. C. Harbord, Arthur O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Hartland, George A. Ormsby-Gore. Rt. Hon. William G. A.
Burghley, Lord Harvey, George (Lambeth, Kennlngt'n) Palmer, Francis Noel
Burnett, John George Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Patrick, Colin M.
Campbell, Sir Edward Taswell (Brmly) Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Peake, Captain Osbert
Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Haslam, Sir John (Bolton) Pearson, William G.
Caporn, Arthur Cecil Headlam. Lieut.-Col. Cuthbert M. Penny, Sir George
Carver, Major William H. Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) Petherick. M.
Castlereagh, Visconnt Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Peto. Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n. Bilston)
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Pike, Cecil F.
Christie, James Archibald Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) Potter, John
Clarry, Reginald George Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H.
Clayton, Sir Christopher Hornby, Frank Procter, Major Henry Adam
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. Horsbrugh, Florence Pybus, Percy John
Colman, N. C. D. Howard, Tom Forrest Radford, E. A.
Colville, Lieut.-Colonel J. Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Ralkes. Henry V. A. M.
Cook, Thomas A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ramsay, Cant. A. H. M. (Midlothian)
Copeland, Ida Hume, Sir George Hopwood Ramsay. T. B. W. (Western Isles)
Craven-Ellis, William Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) Ramsden. Sir Eugene
Crooke, J. Smedley Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Rankin, Robert
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Hurd, Sir Percy Reed. Arthur C. (Exeter)
Crossley, A. C. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. Reid, David D. (County Down)
Cruddas, Lieut-Colonel Bernard Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Radcliffe) Reid, James S. C. (Stirling)
Denman, Hon. R. D. James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Reid, William Allan (Derby)
Dickie, John P. Jamleson, Douglas Rickards, George William
Drewe, Cedric Jesson. Major Thomas E. Ropner. Colonel L.
Duckworth, George A. V. Joel, Dudley J. Barnato Rosbotham, Sir Thomas
Duggan, Hubert John Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) Ross Taylor. Walter (Woodbridge)
Duncan. James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Ker, J. Campbell Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Eastwood. John Francis Kerr, Lieut.-Col. Charles (Montrose) Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tside)
Edmondson, Major A. J, Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter Law, Richard K. (Hull, S. W.) Rutherford. Sir John Hugo (Liverp'l)
Elliston, Captain George Sampson Leckie, J. A. Salt. Edward W.
Elmley. Viscount Leech, Dr. J. W. Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard Stevenson, James Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Scone, Lord Stewart, J. H. (Fife, E.) Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Selley, Harry R. Stones, James Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell) Stourton, Hon. John J. Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar) Strauss, Edward A. Wedderburn, Henry James Scrymgeour.
Shepperson. Sir Ernest w. Strickland, Captain W. F. Wells, Sydney Richard
Skelton, Archibald Noel Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. Weymouth, Viscount
Smith, Louis w. (Sheffield, Hallam) Sugdtn, Sir Wilfrid Hart Whyte, Jardine Bell
Smith. R. W. (Ab'rd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) Templeton, William P. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Somervell, Sir Donald Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford) Wills, Wilfrid D.
Soper. Richard Thompson, Luka Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles Wise, Alfred R.
Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. Thorp, Linton Theodore Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Spencer, Captain Richard A. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Spens, William Patrick Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement TELLERS FOR THE NOES
Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde) Wallace, John (Dunfermline) Major George Davies and Lord Erskine.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.