§
Resolution reported,
That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to make further provision with respect to the financial powers of boards administering schemes under the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, and with respect to the contents of such schemes, to extend the power to make loans to such boards under Section thirteen of the said Act of 1931, and for purposes connected with
170
the matters aforesaid, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of the sums required to defray any increase, resulting from the operation of the said Act of the present Session, in the expenditure authorised by Sub-section (5) of Section eleven of the Agricultural Marketing Act, 1931, to be made out of moneys so provided.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution.
§ 11.18 p.m.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSAs we debated this question at length three or four days ago I do not quite see the point of detaining the House at this late hour, but perhaps the Minister of Agriculture will give the House what information he may have with regard to the financial requirements 171 of the pig and bacon curing schemes. The Financial Memorandum on the front of the Bill states that no estimate can he given of the money required. We know, however, that under Clause 11 of the 1931 original Act, the maximum sum provided by Parliament is£625,000. The Money Resolution is in the nature of a blank cheque, and I call attention to the fact that there is a, limitation upon the fund in the Bill, namely, of£625,000. We are not anxious to detain the House. If the right hon. Gentleman can tell the House approximately the sum required for the Pig and Bacon Marketing Boards to tide them over their immediate difficulties, perhaps we shall be satisfied and the marketing Schemes will not be held up.
§ 11.22 p.m.
§ The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Elliot)I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate the point of view and the courtesy of the hon. Gentleman and his desire that, while such information as is possible should be given to the House, the House should not be delayed or put to the trouble of a Division in view of previous Debates on this subject. It is true that the Financial Memorandum on the front of the Bill states that it is not possible to give any exact figure, but I am sure that my hon. Friend will see that we are in the middle of a period, that the profit and loss account cannot possibly be struck until the end of the period. Therefore it depends, to some extent of course, on the bacon market during the next two or three months. I can assure the House that it will not, or cannot, be over the sum which is allowed for under the provisions of the Act of 1931, and in the Financial Memorandum on the front of the Bill. As for the exact sum that is needed, I find it a little difficult to say, first of all because of the difficulty of striking an average and of prophesying the course of the bacon market, which is always a very difficult thing to do; secondly, for the reason that my prophecy might, in fact, bring about the very thing that I desire should not occur, namely, a fall, or a course of prices as might actually bring about a loss greater than that which otherwise would have been the case.
Suppose I said that there is provision here for£100,000, or£200,000, or£250,000 172 —there is always the temptation for people to help themselves to the extent of that sum. As I said to the House, we have set up here a "three-threes" body. There are three from the bacon producers, three representatives of the Government, and three from the pig breeders. One of them is Sir John Wyndham Portal, who was on the Pig Commission, two gentlemen who were on the Facilities Commission, Mr. Coates and Mr. Howitt, one of whom is a chartered accountant, to ensure that no undue expenditure of public funds takes place. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will excuse me from giving anything in the way of a cast-iron forecast concerning to what extent this amount is likely to be drawn upon, all the more because there will be three people trying to draw from this loan out of the committee of nine. There will also be those anxious to see that this loan is not drawn upon, and there will be the Government representatives anxious, of course, to see that the loan is not unduly drawn upon, because it brings an element of risk to the Treasury. There will, moreover, be three people determined to see that the loan is not drawn upon, and they will be the representatives of the Pigs Board, because it is their money which will be drawn upon and they will be extremely anxious to see that none of it is handed out to the bacon producers.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSIt must be, or they cannot pay for the pigs.
§ Mr. ELLIOTI have no wish to be drawn into a discussion as to the conditions under which persons could break their contracts, or as to the conditions under which their contracts are enforceable, but I am certain that if the hon. and learned Gentleman were briefed for the prosecution and anyone attempted to break his contract, he would see that, whatever that person got for the bacon, he would have to pay full price according to the contract for the pigs. Therefore, there is no danger of this money being rashly spent. In addition to the Government representatives, there are three representatives of the Pigs Board—the producers—who will vehemently desire that these funds should not be drawn upon unduly. The estimate is covered by the sums which have been laid down as not to be exceeded. I beg my hon. Friend not to press me further for an exact estimate, because in the 173 first place it is asking me to don the mantle of a prophet which I am unwilling to do, and, in the second place, as I have said, it might bring about an increase in the loss which we are most anxious to avoid. I hope the assurances which I have given to the House as to the supervision of the fund will reassure my hon. Friend and that with this explanation he will find it possible not to press for a Division on this Resolution.
§ 11.27 p.m.
§ Mr. ATTLEEWhile I do not wish to press for a Division, I must say that the Minister's explanation leaves me rather uneasy. Apparently in this curious arrangement we are to trust to something reasonable coming out from a scramble among competitive private interests. I can only hope that these interests will not read too closely the Minister's speech, because, while he declined to give a figure lest it should encourage them, I am afraid that the mere fact of his saying that it is possible for them to get a certain amount will rather lead them to take that figure, and I do not know how much we are being let in for, but I certainly think it shows the very great danger of these half and half measures in which we have to trust to scrambling private interests.