HC Deb 26 October 1932 vol 269 cc973-5
44. Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAY

asked the First Commissioner of Works if he can make a statement regarding the proposed substitution of custodians for certain of the policemen employed in the precincts of the House?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

I apologise for the length of the answer, but I know that hon. Members are interested in this matter. A new corps of custodians is being established which will be placed under the authority of the Lord Great Chamberlain, and will incorporate the present night watch maintained by my Department. This corps will consist of one superintendent, three inspectors and not more than 40 custodians, who will replace the present night watch and 41 police officers, at a new annual saving to public funds of approximately £13,000. Sixty-one police officers will remain employed at the Houses of Parliament, of whom 48 will be on duty, together with six custodians, whilst Parliament is sitting, as compared with 59 at the present time. The new arrangements, which have been agreed with officers of both Houses of Parliament, and with the Commissioner of Police, are to come into force on the 1st January next. From the figures given hon. Members will appreciate that the greater part of the saving is effected during periods when Parliament is not actually sitting. The 45 existing doorkeepers and messengers are not affected by the change.

Mr. THORNE

Are we to understand that these men who are going to replace the present constables will not be paid so much as the constables; and what is it intended to do with the constables who are to be relieved of this duty?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

I gather that they will be employed by the Metropolitan Police authorities on other police duties.

Sir PERCY HARRIS

Is it correct to say that the men to be appointed will be ex-policemen on pension?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

Some of the custodians will be ex-policemen who are already familiar with the House.

Mr. HICKS

What wages will they be paid?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

They will be paid of course, according to grade, but I have not the actual figures. Perhaps the hon. Member would put down a question.

Mr. BURNETT

Will these ex-policemen be receiving pensions for their previous Government service?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

In many cases it is a matter of continuity. I took up this question of making economies in a very large Vote, for the cost of maintenance of this House, and, on going into the matter, it was perfectly clear that in a number of posts police were being employed where it was quite unnecessary to employ police, especially when Parliament is not sitting.

Mr. MORGAN JONES

Could not other people have been provided with this work—unemployed people—rather than pensioned ex-policemen?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

They will not all be pensioned ex-policemen, but it is very desirable in a change-over of this kind that a certain number of actual individuals who have been familiar with the work of this House should continue.

Mr. ANSTRUTHER-GRAY

Arising out of the original reply, is my right hon. Friend aware that these custodians will not have the same authority or control over the public as uniformed policemen; and is this an opportune moment for reducing the police forces at Westminster?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

As to the total number of police forces in the City of Westminster, under the direct control of Scotland Yard, I do not know how it is going to be affected, or if it will be affected at all, but the men in reserve will be there. We found, on investigation, and all Departments agreed, that the number of police maintained in this building, when Parliament is not sitting, is unnecessarily high.

Sir JOSEPH LAMB

In any new appointments, may we take it that preference will be given to ex-service men?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

Yes.

Mr. LOGAN

There are four chief constables on superannuation in Liverpool. Is it possible to employ them?

Mr. HICKS

Does the right hon. Gentleman think that at this period when there is so much unemployment, it is opportune to make appointments of the kind he has indicated?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

I am not bound to the appointment of exactly this person or that person. Preference will be given to ex-service men and during the period of what I call the change-over it is essential that some of the new custodians should have had previous experience.