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Lords Amendment: In page 25, line 7, leave out from the word "the" to the word "so" in line 10, and insert:
product produced by baking flour unmixed with any substance other than water, salt and yeast or other leaven";
§ Dr. SALTERI beg to move, as an Amendment to the Lords Amendment, in line 1, to leave out from the word "baking," to the end of the Lords Amendment, and to insert instead thereof the words:
a dough prepared by mixing and fermenting flour with water, salt, yeast or other leaven (which Shall include improving substances such as malt or malt extracts) and with no other ingredients.11.30 p.m.When the Bill was before the House, the Minister produced a definition of bread which was covered with ridicule in the House and knocked to pieces in the technical press outside. As a consequence, he produces this new definition. But it is simply rank nonsense. I have never in my life seen anything of this character in a Bill. He sets out to give a definition of bread. Instead, he gives a definition of biscuit. It states that bread is a product produced by baking flour mixed with certain substances. That is biscuit. Flour mixed with water and other substances is biscuit. Bread is produced not by baking flour but by baking dough, and dough is not flour. Dough is a substance which, as the result of certain admixtures and certain chemical and biological and physical processes has been converted into something totally different from flour. From some points of view the definition is positively humorous. In another place I am given to understand that the Minister's representative stated that this new definition had been agreed upon with the representatives of the trade, but, as a matter of fact, that is certainly not so, because this week's trade papers declare the definition to be ridiculous. The actual adjective is ridiculous. An article in the "British Baker" of this week suggests that the trade is not likely to offer its congratulations upon the latest effort of the Minister. There follows a couple of columns ridiculing the definition which is now proposed.
2045 I should like further to define the word "leaven." I understand that the representative of the Ministry in another place made a complete muddle in this connection and stated that such mixtures as malt, malt extract and other improvers were all included under "wheat," whereas they should have been included under the term "leaven." The trade desires that the term "leaven" should be defined specifically in the Act so that there shall be no question hereafter that malt and malt extracts come under that category. Malt, of course, is not strictly leaven in this sense, but it is an aid to the leavening process and acts as a sort of food for the leaven, whether it is yeast or another substance, and it is this process which accelerates action, and in that sense it can be termed "leaven." I understand that that was what was meant in another place when the statement was made that malt, malt extracts and similar improvers were already included in the Bill under the term "wheat." I should like the Minister to clear up the matter and accept the definition which I have moved. No hon. or right hon. Gentleman in the House, and least of all the Minister, would be prepared to say that he agreed that bread was a product produced by baking flour. It is obviously incorrect and should certainly be remedied.
§ Sir J. GILMOURIt is correct to say that when this matter was discussed in the House on a previous occasion some criticism was made of the definition, and the present Lords Amendment, and the next Amendment in line 10, to leave out "article" and to insert "product" seek to improve the definition. The subject is one of a very technical character, and, in drafting the fresh Amendments, we have consulted the National Association of Bakers and Confectioners. [Interruption.] Anybody may write articles, but the writers do not speak for the National Association of Bakers and Confectioners. My Department and I have taken care to ascertain the views of the association, and we have also consulted the Bakers Association of Northern Ireland. They are satisfied with the wording of this definition. That being so, I would respectfully say to the House that, while I do not claim to have technical knowledge upon this matter, I have taken adequate 2046 steps to consult those who ought to know, and as they are satisfied, I think we ought to leave in the proposed definition.
§ Amendment to the proposed Lords Amendment negatived.
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 25, line 24, agreed to.
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Lords Amendment: In page 25, line 26, at the end, insert:
'Flour' means the products produced by the milling of wheat, and includes all such products except substances separated in the milling as wheat offals, and (subject to the provisions of Sub-section (2) of this Section) where such products as aforesaid are mixed with other substances, whether or not produced by the milling of wheat and whether milled with the wheat or subsequently added, the mixture shall be deemed to be flour;
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Sir J. Gilmour.]
§ Dr. SALTERCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether in the definition of flour, Grape Nuts, Force and similar productions are included?
§ Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 26, line 41, agreed to.
§ Lords Amendment: In page 28, line 8, leave out "fifteen," and insert instead thereof "seventeen."
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."—[Sir J. Gilmour. ]
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSWith reference to the appointment of a representative of agricultural workers, we are not quite sure whether the right hon. Gentleman hopes to make that selection.
§ Sir J. GILMOURThis increase in the number from 15 to 17 gives a wider scope for selection. I cannot commit myself as to the actual selection at the moment, but I have in mind to include as wide a representation of the interests of consumers as possible, and I must leave it at that. Obviously it gives an opportunity for widening the representation, which I think is acceptable to the House generally.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSDo I understand the right hon. Gentleman to mean that this increase will enable him to increase the representation of the workers?
§ Sir J. GILMOURThat is a possibility which will have to be considered carefully.
§ Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.