§ Captain PETER MACDONALD(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs if he has had a communication from the Irish Free State Government regarding that Government's attitude towards Land Purchase Annuities due to this country and other Treaty obligations, and, if so, what was the nature of his reply?
The SECRETARY of STATE for DOMINION AFFAIRS (Mr. J. H. Thomas)I was officially informed yesterday by the High Commissioner for the Irish Free State that, in the opinion of his Government, the Oath of Allegiance is not mandatory in the Treaty, and that the Irish Free State have an absolute right to modify their Constitution as tile people desire. It is manifest that the Oath is an integral part of the Treaty made 10 years ago between the two countries and hitherto honourably observed on both sides. We are addressing to His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State a communication which will snake our standpoint clear beyond a possibility of doubt.
With regard to the Land Annuities, we have received no official communication from the Irish Free State Government, but from a, statement reported to have been made yesterday by Mr. de Valera in the Free State Senate we understand that the Free State Government propose to retain the Irish Land Annuities. These Annuities are payments which the tenants of purchased estates make in order to repay the sums lent to them to buy their land. The Irish Free State Government are bound by the most formal and explicit undertaking to continue to pay the Land Annuities to the National Debt Commissioners, and the failure to do so would be a manifest violation of an engagement which is binding in law and in honour on the Irish Free State, whatever Administration may be in power, in exactly the same way as the Treaty itself is binding on both countries.
§ Sir STAFFORD CRIPPSWill the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he intends to publish the reply which he has sent to His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State?
Mr. THOMASUndoubtedly the reply of the Government will be published, but, in this connection, I feel sure that I express the sentiment of the whole House when I say that it is not a time for panic. It is a serious matter, and the best way to deal with it is not to have a Debate in the House, but I assure the House that all communications will ultimately be the property of the House as a whole.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSI was not suggesting that there should be a Debate. In view of the fact that the Irish Free State statement has been published will the right hon. Gentleman see that the Government statement is also published at once?
Mr. THOMASCertainly, but when I say at once, I mean at the appropriate moment. Immediately in any exchange of communications the Irish Free State Government publish theirs, we will send a considered reply and that reply will be made public.
§ Mr. BUCHANANDoes the right hon. Gentleman's statement mean that the whole of the annuities must he paid, and that no remission of any portion will be allowed to the Irish Free State?
Mr. THOMASI do not propose to go into any detail. My answer is clear and explicit. The annuities are a bargain between the two people hitherto honourably kept as a debt owing to us, and we intend that that agreement should stand.
§ Mr. BUCHANANIs that a declaration of war by the right hon. Gentleman? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] It is a declaration of war. That is what it is—going to war for £3,000,000.
§ Mr. MAXTONI believe it is obviously impossible, with the information that we have, to enter into Debate on this subject, and it would be out of order at this moment, but I want to suggest that the House should have the opportunity of debate before final policies are decided, and not after. I want to ask the 1046 right hon. Gentleman if it is not the case that this present Government have been negotiating with practically every country in the world about the revision of treaties and reduction of debt, and if the Irish nation are going to be treated at least as well as foreign nations?
Mr. THOMASI would again urge the House to remember not only my difficulty, but my anxiety not to say anything at this stage that will embitter the situation or make it more difficult; but, equally, I must make it clear in this House and to the country that the answer I have read out, which leaves no shadow of doubt on two points, namely, the Oath and the land annuities, is the considered judgment of the Government, and that is where we stand on the matter.
§ Mr. MAXTONObviously, the right hon. Gentleman has the support of the majority of the House, but I am sure the House will not mind a minority expressing its view also. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman if his statement to-day does not amount to this, that there will be no negotiations with Ireland on the question of her relations with this country, that he has made a statement to-day, that our decision is taken on the issue of the Oath and the land annuities, and that there will be no ordinary friendly negotiations—[An HON. MEMBER: "Why should there be?"]—with the Irish Government, such as he would have with any other nation in the world?
§ Sir ROBERT HORNEBefore the right hon. Gentleman answers may I ask this: Has Ireland asked for any negotiations in this matter?
Mr. THOMASLet me make it clear to the House that I do not know any party in the House, and for this purpose I include the party of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton), that has ever subscribed to the policy that a bargain or treaty between two sides could with impunity be repudiated by one. So far as the British Government are concerned, my answer is an answer to information received by me that one side in this particular matter repudiates their side of the bargain, and I desire again to repeat to the House that I have made the position of the Government quite clear, and there need 1047 be no doubt whatever where we stand; but, equally, I have made the declaration so that those who do believe in an honourable agreement, and that an agreement by two sides can only be altered by the consent of the two sides, should have no apprehension or doubt as to where the British Government stands.
§ Mr. MAXTONWar, war!
§ Mr. BUCHANANA declaration of war, sheer war!
§ Mr. LOGANI wish to ask one question. I do not want to get into difficulties in regard to this situation. [Interruption.] That is quite true, and I will be very discreet. I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman: Was the communication of yesterday a telephonic communication or was it documentary?
Mr. THOMASThe communication of yesterday was expressed verbally to me, and confirmed afterwards with a document, so that there could be no doubt as to its meaning, and, indeed, Mr. de Valera himself last night confirmed that view; and it is on that that I have given my answer.
§ Sir S. CRIPPSMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the statement he has made is a decision of policy or the statement of a point of view of this Government as to the meaning of the Treaty? Is it not a fact that the Irish Government have stated a different point of view as regards the meaning of the Treaty?
Mr. THOMASThe Irish Government's intimation to me that I read to the House stated their views. The answer I gave stated our views. That is clear and definite.