CLAUSE 4.—(By-laws of the Wheat Commission.) (Hansard, 17 March 1932)

§ Brigadier-General CLIFTON BROWN
I beg to move, in page 8, line 5, at the end, to insert the words: (b) for prescribing the form of the contract (in this section referred to as "the prescribed form of contract") between registered growers of home-grown millable wheat and purchasers of such wheat which shall be used in the case of all sales of such wheat, such contract to be in the form set forth in the Second Schedule to this Act subject to such modifications, additions, and omissions, not being inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, as the Wheat Commissioners may from time by by-law provide, and for the transmission to the Wheat Commission by the registered grower or the purchaser forthwith after the completion of any such contract or a true copy thereof. My hon. Friends and I who are putting forward this Amendment thought it was necessary to have some form of contract so that the farmer will understand exactly what he is doing when he is selling his wheat. It is important that the form of contract should be more or less uniform all over the country. I appreciate that there should be a certain amount of elasticity for which the Wheat 496 Commission should make by-laws, but at the same time both buyer and seller want to know that the same sort of contracts are being carried out in different parts of the country, and, if this Amendment is agreed to, farmers will be able to see from the form of contract that this is being done. The object of my proposal is to simplify the procedure. The form of contract would be in triplicate. The buyer would sign one copy and he would hand two copies to the seller. The procedure would be simplified, because the farmer, after signing his copy of the contract, would take the contract to his bank together with his certificate, on which the banker would be able to give him such advance as he might require. Paragraph (b) of Subsection (2) enables payments in advance to be made to registered growers, and the form of contract I am suggesting will make the procedure very much easier. Paragraph (g) of the same Sub-section requires registered growers to keep records and furnish returns. That would all be provided for in the contract. The form of contract I suggest would very much simplify the procedure from the 497 sellers' and the buyers' point of view. In this way all the records could be noted and they would be understood by the farmer. Something of the kind which I am suggesting would not only produce more uniformity, but it would very much simplify the transactions between buyer and seller.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I agree with the Mover of this Amendment that cases may arise in which something of this kind is required, but I think it is unwise to put it in a definite form such as is suggested, because this is just the kind of work which the Wheat Commission, with their technical experience and knowledge, will be best able to deal with if and when it is required. I am bound to say, further, that no representation on this point has reached me from either the growers or the purchasers of wheat in this country, but I think it is perhaps well that the matter has been ventilated. We shall take careful note of it, but I cannot accept the Amendment in the form in which it has bean moved.

Brigadier-General BROWN
I am very much obliged to my right hon. Friend, and am glad to hear that he will be kind enough to consider the matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. T. WILLIAMS
I beg to move, in page 8, line 6, after the word "enabling," to insert the words: subject to recovery in whole or in part. The object of this Amendment will be clear to the right hon. Gentleman. It is that, if a payment has been made under Clause 4 (2, b), and that payment is proved later in the cereal year to be in excess of what the registered grower was entitled to receive, the right hon. Gentleman should be enabled to recover any overpayment that may have been made. I imagine that but for some oversight some such words will have been put into the Bill originally.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
As the hon. Gentleman has said, this Amendment is intended to provide for the possibility of the Wheat Commission making advances to registered growers during the cereal year of sums larger than the deficiency payment. That is quite a proper provision to make, but I am advised that it can be dealt with adequately in the by-laws of the Wheat 498 Commission, which, of course, would have to be made with the approval of the Minister. That is the reason why I have not put it into the Bill, and I think that in the circumstances the Amendment is really unnecessary.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
Seeing that the Wheat Commission will consist of persons Who, after all, are interested in the deficiency payments, and so forth, would it not be preferable, instead of leaving the question to be dealt with by them in regulations which they themselves may make subsequently, even though they must be submitted to the right hon. Gentleman, to embody these four or five words in the Bill, so that there would be no uncertainty? Could the right hon. Gentleman, between now and Report, reconsider whether these words ought to be embodied in the Bill?

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
It is clear that the Minister will have control over this matter. I am, of course, ready to look into the details between now and Report.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
In that case, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

§ Mr. T. WILLIAMS
I beg to move, in page 8, line 7, after the word "to," to insert the word "individual."
This Amendment only asks that individual growers may receive the interim payment referred to in Clause 4 (2, b). Arrangements are made for registered growers to receive a sum on account, and the Amendment is merely designed to permit each individual registered grower to receive any sum on account that may be available, following the regulations that have been made. I think the right hon. Gentleman will see the wisdom of accepting this Amendment, so that no complications may follow.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I really think that this Amendment is unnecessary. Under the Sub-section, no registered grower will be entitled to a payment in advance otherwise than in respect of wheat that has actually been sold by him, and he is the individual to whom the deficiency payment will become due. The Sub-section, clearly, does not enable the Wheat Commission to make advances to growers who 499 have not sold wheat which entitles them to the deficiency payment. In the circumstances, I cannot accept the Amendment.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I beg to move, in page 8, line 25, after the word "wheat," to insert the words: or of his agent. This Amendment is designed to meet the case of a buyer of wheat whose name is not known to the registered grower, because he has purchased his wheat through an agent. This would permit of the agent's name being stated on the wheat certificate, and enable a satisfactory trace to be kept of the transaction.

§ Sir JOSEPH LAMB
Does my right hon. Friend realise that the term "agent" would include a co-operative society?

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
Yes, Sir.

§ The CHAIRMAN
Brigadier-General Clifton Brown.

§ Mr. T. WILLIAMS
May I ask, Sir Dennis, whether you are not calling my Amendment, which precedes that of the hon. and gallant Member—In page 8, line 43, at the end, to insert the words: and of the yield per acre of the land under wheat. We regard that Amendment as one of considerable importance.

§ The CHAIRMAN
I am not selecting that Amendment.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
We should, of course, hesitate to disagree with your Ruling, but we regard this piece of information, which we propose that registered growers should be invited to keep, as vital, and we thought that perhaps, having that fact in mind, you might have deemed it advisable to select this Amendment. We think that this information would be invaluable to the committee that is likely to be set up under Clause 2 (2), when they come to review the economic conditions of the industry and matters relating thereto. Unless they have this information, we fear that they will be unable to carry out their duties.

§ The CHAIRMAN
It would be unwise on my part to indicate the reasons why I did not select the hon. Member's Amendment, but, as the Committee has made very good progress, I shall be glad to allow the hon. Member to say why he considers that his Amendment should be selected. I will, therefore, call upon him to move it.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
I beg to move, in page 8, line 43, at the end, to insert the words: and of the yield per acre of the land under wheat. Under Clause 4 (2, g), records must be kept by registered growers, and when required they must furnish returns, of all wheat bought and sold by them, and of the price at which it is bought or sold. This Amendment proposes to provide that the record shall include, in addition, the yield per acre of the land under wheat. Our reason for thinking that this Amendment might be accepted is that, when the committee which is to be set up under Clause 2 (2) is invited to examine the economic conditions of the industry, with a view, it may be, to increasing the standard price, or decreasing the standard price, or leaving it at the same figure for a further period, the committee ought to be in a position to examine what has transpired during the period of three years with regard to the productivity of the wheat-growing areas.
The explanatory Memorandum states that one of the objects of the Bill is to discourage the extension of wheat cultivation on land that is unsuitable for the crop. Unless the committee have certain information with regard to the yield per acre, we feel that they will be working more or less in the dark, and the Minister, when he is called upon to accept or reject any recommendation of the committee, will also be in doubt as to whether there has been an extension of wheat growing on unsuitable land. If registered growers are invited to provide information as to the yield per acre of land under wheat, the committee, having this information, would be in a position to recommend either an alteration or a continuance of the standard price. For these reasons we think that this Amendment might very well be accepted.

§ Sir J. GILMOUR
I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's anxiety that the fullest 501 records shall be kept, but it is inadvisable to be too definite about this in the Bill. Of course, these paragraphs indicate the minimum of records which must be kept in order that the Wheat Commission shall have at its disposal all the information necessary to carry out its statutory duties, but it is unnecessary to put in a great many details. The Wheat Commission will seek from registered growers from time to time, no doubt, a great variety of information, and it is very undesirable that we should be too definite in attempting to limit them. I appreciate that it is desirable that there should be a record kept, and I think there can be no doubt that, in fact, that record will be kept.

Mr. PRICE
I do not think we are entirely satisfied with the Minister's reply. We understood that this was a scheme that was to operate for a given period, after which the country would be in a position to make a definite examination of its effects. After the discussion on the previous Clause, it is imperative that this detailed information should be assured so that at the end of the period the country can form a judgment an to the future of wheat growing. Eminent agriculturists in the House, apart from a number of us who have given some consideration to the matter, have definitely come to the conclusion that wheat growing, except for our own use for stock feeding, is a thing of the past. The country is being called upon to give nearly £6,000,000 per annum, and we ought to know at the end of the period what purpose it has served and whether certain wheat growing districts can continue with any success or not. This money is going to be found by very poor people, and the country has a right to know at the end of the period what has happened in every particular detail. The Minister does not deny that all the information that we can get ought to be given. Then why not insert these few words, so that the country would, at the end of the three years, be in possession of the whole of the facts. Without the information we shall be unable to judge as to the possibility of growing wheat here and discontinuing it there, and I think the Amendment ought to be accepted.

§ Sir D, NEWTON
I hope and believe that, under the terms of this Clause, 502 the Wheat Commission will be vested with all the necessary and proper powers to discharge their duties and, therefore, I support the Minister in his opposition to the Amendment. It would be a great mistake to overload the Bill with precise details as to the manner in which the Wheat Commission shall carry out its functions and, the more machinery we incorporate in the Bill, the greater will be the cost of its working. Moreover, the practical value of the information to be obtained will be almost negligible. On these grounds, I hope the Amendment will be withdrawn.

§ Sir J. LAMB
There is another reason that I should like to give. This would undoubtedly necessitate the appointment of a good many inspectors.