HC Deb 17 March 1932 vol 263 cc589-96
Sir S. CRIPPS

I beg to move, in page 15, line 39, after the word "any," to insert the words dealer in wheat, flour, or wheat offals. This Amendment is moved with the object of extending the category of persons already covered by paragraph (a) of Sub-section (1). At present it includes only carriers, that is, all railway companies, warehousemen or their servants or agents, who are required to give the Wheat Commission certain particulars. We feel that if the Wheat Commission are to have these wide powers they may as well be extended to cover everybody concerned, and we suggest the addition of these fresh categories.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I agree with the purpose of this Amendment, and shall be prepared to accept it, though I think it may involve some small consequential Amendments on the Report stage.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir S. CRIPPS

I beg to move, in page 16, line 8, after the word "and" to insert the words subject to any legal objection. Paragraph (b) deals with various matters ort which the Commission have power, by notice in writing, to require certain registered growers and others to provide information. With these words inserted, the Commission will have power to require any registered grower or officer of any corporation or any person whom the Commission have reasonable cause to believe to be a miller or an importer of flour, or a person carrying on business as a dealer in wheat or flour, to furnish such information as may be specified in the notice, and, subject to any legal objection, to produce to any auditor appointed by the Commission such accounts, books and other documents as may be necessary. The point of inserting the words of the Amendment is that there may be reason why some of these documents should not be produced to an auditor. It is in order to protect any such person from the possible consequences of being ordered by the Wheat Commission to do something which is contrary to his legal duty that we suggest the inclusion of these words.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I am advised that these words are not necessary. The only documents that can be called for are such documents as may be necessary to enable the auditor to check the information given to him. If a person refused to produce such a document and was prosecuted under Sub-section (2) for not producing it, it would be open to him to put forward the defence that the document was not necessary, and if the court held such a defence to be good he would not have to produce the document. The legal objection referred to in the Amendment can always be taken before the court, and there is nowhere else that it can be taken. The Amendment, therefore, is unnecessary.

Amendment negatived.

Mr. LOGAN

I beg to move, in page 16, line 16, after the word "premises," to insert the words "other than domestic."

The Sub-section would then read: Any person authorised under the last foregoing sub-section to exercise any functions may at all reasonable times upon production of his authority on demand enter on any land or premises other than domestic, and take samples of any wheat or flour found thereon. The reason for the Amendment is to make the Sub-section more explanatory and less inquisitorial. Paragraph (b) leaves an ambiguity. I do not want such power to be allowed to any officer who is making inquiries. I do not want him to be able to go inside domestic premises.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

We think that the Amendment is not necessary. There is no fear that the inspectors will look into a miller's private larder for a sack of 280 lbs. of flour, or in a farmer's bedroom for 4½ cwts. of wheat. Farmers and millers do not hide these things unless they are the sort of people who practise fraud on a very elaborate scale, in which case they are very soon detected in the ordinary way. I really do not think that there would be any danger of the kind anticipated.

Mr. LOGAN

If one reads the Subsection, it will be found that there are many things which can be put inside the house, and that is why we wish to insert the words "other than domestic." I know my proposal might be redundant under ordinary conditions, but when men come to visit houses with authority they come in with all the power of the law, and poke their noses into places where they ought not to go. I think it is such a simple proposition that it ought to be accepted, and, if it meets the broadmindedness of the Minister, I hope he will consent to insert those words.

Mr. MALLALIEU

The point is not what a farmer can do, but what an inspector may do. I view the words of this Clause with very grave apprehension. There is practically no place into which an inspector might not poke his nose, and, without wishing presently to wash our prospective dirty linen in public and to go into any greater detail now, I wish to say that I shall support this Amendment not only on the ground of public decency but of public chastity.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

I think the domestic premises of the farmer ought to be protected. If an inspector has power to visit all parts of the farm and the warehouse, I think we ought at least to protect the house, because an Englishman's home is supposed to be his castle, as we have heard so frequently from hon. Members opposite. I remember the Debate on the Kettering Gas Bill in which we heard frequently from hon.

Members opposite that an Englishman's home was his castle. In this case, the right hon. Gentleman says that it does not matter, and that the Amendment is out of date. I hope the Minister of Agriculture will see the wisdom of accepting the Amendment, and preserving the farm from a Nosey Parker inspector of whom we have already too many. Where we require more inspectors we cannot get them, and where we require fewer the Government propose to give us more. These inspectors ought not to be allowed to trespass upon the private domestic premises of any farm. The Government may be making friends of the farmers by passing this Bill, but the farmers' wives will not love them if they give the inspectors power to enter upon their domestic premises. [Interruption.] I am reminded that the inspectors will be the servants of the Wheat Commission, and will not be subject to Parliament, or even to the right hon. Gentleman. The members of the Wheat Commission will be able to deal with these inspectors. If it be true that, as has been said so frequently, an Englishman's home is his castle, the domestic part of his home ought to be preserved, and we shall insist either upon this Amendment being accepted or upon pressing it to a Division.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 36 Noes. 216.

Division No. 123.] AYES. [11.17 p.m.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Morris, Rhys Hopkin (Cardigan)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Parkinson, John Allen
Buchanan, George Hirst, George Henry Price, Gabriel
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Holdsworth, Herbert Rothschild, James A. de
Cripps, Sir Stafford Jenkins, Sir William Salter, Dr. Alfred
Daggar, George John, William Tinker, John Joseph
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Kirkwood, David Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Edwards, Charles Lansbury, Rt. Hon, George Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Logan, David Gilbert Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) Lunn, William
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grundy, Thomas W. Mallalieu, Edward Lancelot Mr. Duncan Graham and Mr. Groves.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bernays, Robert Broadbent, Colonel John
Adams, Samuel Vyvyan T. (Leeds, W.) Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Brocklebank, C. E. R.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Bevan, Stuart James (Holborn) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H.C.(Berks., Newb'y)
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd.) Blindell, James Browne, Captain A. C.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Bossom, A. C. Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Aske, Sir Robert William Boulton, W. W. Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie
Balfour, Capt. Harold (I. of Thanet) Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Caine, G. R. Hall-
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley)
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar Boyd-Carpenter, Sir Archibald Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Caporn, Arthur Cecil
Beaumont, Hon. R.E.B. (Portsm'th, C.) Briscoe, Capt. Richard George Carver, Major William H.
Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Kerr, Hamilton W. Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Kimball, Lawrence Held, William Allan (Derby)
Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. Rhys, Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Robinson, John Roland
Christie, James Archibald Latham, Sir Herbert Paul Ropner, Colonel L.
Colman, N. C. D. Law, Sir Alfred Rosbotham, S. T.
Colville, John Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Conant, R. J. E. Leckie, J. A. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E. A.
Cook, Thomas A. Leech, Dr. J. W. Runge, Norah Cecil
Copeland, Ida Leighton, Major B. E. P. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Craven-Ellis, William Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Russell, Hamer Field (Shef'ld, B'tside)
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro) Levy, Thomas Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)
Crossley, A. C. Lindsay, Noel Ker Salmon, Major Isidore
Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Cunliffe- Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham.)
Donner, P. W, Lloyd, Geoffrey Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Drewe, Cedric Lockwood, John C. (Hackney, C.) Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Duggan, Hubert John Loder, Captain J. de Vere Scone, Lord
Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) Lovat-Fraser, James Alexander Selley, Harry R.
Eastwood, John Francis Mabane, William Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Elliot, Major Rt. Hon. Walter E. MacAndrew, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Shaw, Helen B. (Lanark, Bothwell)
Elmley, Viscount McCorquodale, M. S. Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Emmott, Charles E. G. C. McEwen, Captain J. H. F. Skelton, Archibald Noel
Emrys-Evans, P. V. McKie, John Hamilton Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) McLean, Major Alan Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Somervell, Donald Bradley
Fox, Sir Gifford Magnay, Thomas Soper, Richard
Fuller, Captain A. G. Marjoribanks, Edward Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Gillett, Sir George Masterman Marsden, Commander Arthur Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Martin, Thomas B. Spencer, Captain Richard A.
Glossop, C. W. H. Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.) Stones, James
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John Storey, Samuel
Goff, Sir Park Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) Stourton, Hon. John J.
Goodman, Colonel Albert W. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Strickland, Captain W. F.
Mitchell, Harold P.(Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Gower, Sir Robert Mitcheson, G. G. Sutcliffe, Harold
Graves, Marjorie Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale Tate, Mavis Constance
Greene, William P. C. Moreing, Adrian C. Templeton, William P.
Grimston, R. V. Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.) Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Muirhead, Major A. J. Thompson, Luke
Guy, J. C. Morrison Munro, Patrick Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Thorp, Linton Theodore
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Normand, Wilfrid Guild Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) North, Captain Edward T. Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hanley, Dennis A. Nunn, William Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry O'Connor, Terence James Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Hartington, Marquess of O'Donovan, Dr. William James Warrender, Sir Victor A. G.
Haslam, Henry (Lindsay, H'ncastle) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur F. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Wells, Sydney Richard
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William G A. Weymouth, Viscount
Hops, Capt. Arthur O. J. (Aston) Palmer, Francis Noel Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Hope, Sydney (Chester, Stalybridge) Pearson, William G. Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.)
Horsbrugh, Florence Penny, Sir George Wills, Wilfrid D.
Howard, Tom Forrest Perkins, Walter R. D. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Petherick, M Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hudson, Capt. A. U.M. (Hackney, N.) Peto, Geoffrey K.(W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) Wise, Alfred R.
Hume, Sir George Hopwood Pike, Cecil F. Womersley, Walter James
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Raikes, Henry V. A. M. Worthington, Dr. John V.
Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas W. H. Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) Wragg, Herbert
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, C.) Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian)
Jackson, J. C. (Heywood & Hadcliffe) Ramsay, T. B, W. (Western Isles) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Ramsden, E. Major George Davies and Lord
Jennings, Roland Ratcliffe, Arthur Erskine.
Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Rea, Walter Russell

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. COCKS

I wish to ask the Minister to explain two points on Sub-section (2) which we have been discussing. In many parts of the Committee there is a feeling that this Clause is rather unfortunately worded, and perhaps the Minister would be good enough to consider redrafting it between now and the Report stage. Farmers ought to know that they are to be placed under an authority in this Clause, which seems to combine something of the attributes of the Spanish Inquisition and of the Klu-klux Klan. This is a sort of thing that I do not wish to see established in this country, and hon. Members opposite are supporting this method. Under the Clause, any person who is an inspector of this board or authority can come upon a farmer's premises—his house or grounds—at any reasonable time, and take samples of wheat and ask for books, accounts and documents. If he is impeded in any way, the farmer is subject to heavy penalties, and may even receive three months' imprisonment.

In regard to the words "any person," has the farmer no defence against any kind of person entering his premises? The inspector might be an individual for whom the farmer had a dislike. He might be a, person with whom the farmer had had trouble in the past, who had insulted the farmer's daughter, or made eyes at his wife. He might be a man whom the farmer had previously threatened to put into the duck-pond or to set his dog on. This objectionable fellow might come up to the farmer's premises and on seeing the farmer would say, "Ha, ha!" The farmer would have to throw open wide his portals and show him anything he might want to see—books, documents and other things specified in the order. If he impeded him in any way the inspector would say that he must do exactly as he wanted him to do or he would get three months' imprisonment. I suggest that the fanner or miller ought to be given some protection and be entitled to say to the authority, "You propose to send so-and-so, and I will not have him here. He is not persona grata, and you had better send somebody else." He ought to be entitled to protection. The second point is, that the inspector has to enter at any reasonable time. I suggest that the reasonable time should be one which is reasonable to the farmer and not merely to the inspector. The inspector should not come, for example, at a time when the farmer is in the middle of a. 10-acre field, or in the market town, or away on private or business affairs. He should not come without notice. The farmer should be entitled to receive 10 days' notice that the inspector intends to come, and he should also be entitled to say that the time suggested is not a convenient time, and to suggest another time. Otherwise, the man may come at any time, whether it is convenient or not. Those two safeguards ought to be put in somewhere, and, if necessary, the Clause should be redrafted between now and the Report stage. If they are not inserted the operation of the Act will not be so easy as it would otherwise be. It may become unpopular in certain places, and the inspector may be greeted not with politeness but with pitchforks. In order that that should not occur I ask the Minister to give us an assurance on these two points.

Sir J. GILMOUR

I am certain that these regulations ensure, in the first place, that notice in writing shall be given, and that the entry shall be at a reasonable time. The inspector will not go unless he receives a report that there is some difficulty in connection with the carrying out of the duties under the Act. It is right that these powers should be given, and I do not anticipate that there will be any misuse of them.

Mr. COCKS

If notice is given to the farmer will he be entitled to write back and say that it is not a convenient time and to suggest an alternative time?

Sir J. GILMOUR

I have no doubt that if that were not done for the pure purpose of evasion it would be accepted.

Mr. COCKS

Will he be able to take exception to the inspector himself, to say, for instance, that there has been some trouble between him and the inspector and to suggest that some other person should be sent?

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Sir J. Gilmour.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock, Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-eight Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.