HC Deb 06 June 1932 vol 266 cc1682-7

Amendment made: In page 55, line 11, after the word "Act," insert the words, "unless the context otherwise requires."—[Sir H. Young.]

Mr. M. BEAUMONT

I beg to move, in page 55, line 14, at the end, to insert the words: but does not include hoardings or similar structures to which the Advertisements Regulation Acts, 1907 and 1925, apply or which are used solely for the purpose of poster advertising. I move this Amendment for the purpose of eliciting information from the Minister. The question of advertisements and advertising was the subject of an agreement in the Committee stage, and I understand that, owing to an oversight, as the Bill at present stands the powers to remove advertisement hoardings apply to advertising stations, that is to say, buildings other than hoardings which are used for advertising purposes. Therefore, if an advertisement were placed on a wall at the end of a house, the correct procedure, as the Bill stands, would be to pull down the whole house. I know that that is not the Minister's intention, and I desire to ascertain from him whether he proposes to insert this Amendment or whether in another place an Amendment to the same effect will be inserted.

Mr. MOREING

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir H.YOUNG

I think there is ground for examination in the suggested criticism as to the possibly illusory nature of the limitation which Clause 42 seeks to impose, and, if my hon. Friend will be so good as to withdraw this Amendment—which I am informed is not in a suitable drafting form in its present state—I will consider the matter with a view to bringing in the necessary Amendment in another place. What appears to be required is some provision that advertisements and hoardings as such are only to be dealt with under the provisions of Clause 42, and my object would be to find a form of words which would make that clear.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 55, line 17, at the end, to insert the words: 'Classified road' means a road classified by the Minister of Transport under the Ministry of Transport Act, 1919, in Class 1 or Class 2, or in any class declared by him to be mot inferior to those classes for the purposes of the Local Government Act, 1929.

Captain WATERHOUSE

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 2, to leave out the words "or Class 2."

This definition refers to paragraph (i) of Clause 19, which is one of the paragraphs that give the right to deprive of compensation in specified directions. This particular right of deprivation of compensation is with respect to roads of the nature of a high road, and, during the Committee stage, my right hon. Friend made some concession in this direction. As the Bill was originally drafted, the Minister might deprive of compensation anyone who was precluded from developing an estate by the running of side roads into any highway. He has met us to some extent, but my submission is that he has not met us quite far enough. During the Committee stage, he pointed out that the object, which was a right and proper one, was to keep the large arterial roads as far as possible free from troublesome side entrances, and the Attorney-General went so far as to say that, if one road of entry were allowed in every quarter-mile, that would be suffi- cient. I submit that one road of entry in every quarter-mile is entirely insufficient, because, when one is developing an estate, the roads are not merely a means of getting people or traffic on to that estate—

Sir H. YOUNG

On a point of Order. I shall be glad of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, simply for my own guidance in reply, as to whether, on this Amendment as to the class of roads to be included in the definition, it would be in order to go into the merits as to the power of control over the number of side roads?

Mr. SPEAKER

That would seem to me to be going beyond the scope of the Amendment.

Captain WATERHOUSE

May I remind you, Sir, that I had an Amendment down to paragraph (i) of Clause 19, and that the Minister then put down an Amendment to strike out Class 1 and Class 2 roads, and to substitute the term "classified roads"? It seems to me that the only way in which I can possibly raise this point, which I believe to be a real point, is on this definition Clause.

Mr. SPEAKER

I am afraid that the hon. and gallant Member's precedent is not a very sound one, and that he must confine himself entirely to the Amendment.

Captain WATERHOUSE

It is rather hard to confine myself to an Amendment of a definition unless I can give reasons why I think that the definition should be altered. If it is your Ruling that I must confine myself to a definition of classified roads, and may not give any reason why I think the definition should be altered, I must say that I find myself in a position of considerable difficulty, but I do not propose to detain the House for very long if I am allowed to continue. The roads entering these estates are not merely traffic roads, but are used for sewers, water pipes, electric light mains, and gas mains. All these services follow the roads. As the Minister will appreciate, the restriction of the number of roads of entry may quite conceivably mean, not only longer drains, but far deeper drains, if the falls have to be obtained by going a furlong or so north and south before it is possible to go a furlong east or west. I think that the Minister, who, like ourselves, has at heart the cheapening of development in this country, will also realise that it is not the landlord, or even the speculative builder, who in the upshot will have to bear this extra burden, but that it will have to be borne by the people who buy or rent the houses.

8.0 p.m.

It seems to me that this provision is unnecessary so far as Class 2 roads are concerned. Of course, the classification of roads varies a good deal in different parts of the country. In many parts of the country a Class 2 road does not carry very much of the through traffic, and I think it is true to say that the new large arterial roads which are being built all over the country are never Class 2 roads. It is those roads which the Minister, I understand, seeks to safeguard. I am sure he will see my point, and I hope that he will deal sympathetically with the Amendment to the proposed Amendment, and, if we cannot accept it, will make some alteration in the direction that I seek to pursue.

Marquess of HARTINGTON

I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

Sir H. YOUNG

My hon. and gallant Friend will fully apprehend that I mean no disrespect to his argument if I do not deal with the wider aspects of it which relate to whether or not there shall be power in a town planning authority to control the number of side roads into a main road. The argument is well known. We went into it very fully in Committee and dealt with it to some extent on Second Reading. The issue that my hon. and gallant Friend raises now is the narrower issue. Granted that there should be power to control the number of side roads entering a main road, 'and granted that that authority should not be extended to mere by-roads where there can be no necessity to control traffic—and it is freely granted that you must have some limit, and that you need not extend it to all roads—what is the class of roads to which you should apply this power? I have gone into the matter very carefully indeed with expert advisers on road traffic who know more about it than I do, and I am assured that, if you are to make any classification here, the only practical classification you can make is to include the Class 1 and the Class 2 roads. That might not have been so some years. ago, but it is so to-day because of the growth in importance of Class 2 roads. With the rapid increase of swift traffic, which is, unfortunately, ever seeking out fresh ways of getting into the countryside, Class 2 roads are constantly becoming more and more important until nowadays it is very difficult to find any real differentiation between Class 2 and Class 1 roads. As at present advised, this is the most practical classification for the purpose we have in view.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment negatived.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

Captain WATERHOUSE

On a point of Order, Am I to understand that my Amendment is carried?

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Captain Bourne)

No.

Further Amendments made; In page 55, line 26, leave out the word "or."

In line 27, after the word "ground," insert the words "or orchard."

In line 29, leave out the word "these" and insert instead thereof the words "any of those."

In line 41, at the end, insert the words: 'Fence' and 'hedge' have respectively the same meanings as in the Roads Improvements Act, 1925.

In line 41, at the end, insert the words: 'Joint committee' means a joint committee appointed under section three or under section four of this Act, or under any repealed enactment relating to town planning.

In page 56, line 2, after the word right," insert the words "in or."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 56, line 23, to leave out from the second word "scheme," to the end of line 28, and to insert instead thereof the words: under this Act and save as otherwise expressly provided in this Act includes a supplementary scheme and a scheme varying or revoking an existing scheme. This is a drafting Amendment. Its effect is that supplementary schemes and varying and revoking schemes are treated in the same way as ordinary schemes except for the purposes of Clauses 6, 7 and 10, in which they are expressly excepted.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 56, line 35, to leave out from the word "scheme" to the word "such," in line 39 and to insert instead thereof the words: or a varying scheme the date on which the resolution to prepare or adopt the scheme took effect or. This is a drafting Amendment consequential partly on the Amendment of Clause 6 made in Committee requiring all Resolutions to be approved by the Minister, and partly on an Amendment made on Friday.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 56, line 43, to leave out the words "a general development order," and to insert instead thereof the words "or a varying scheme."

The omission of "a general development order" is consequential on the Amendment of Clause 15. The insertion of "a varying scheme" is consequential on an Amendment to which I have referred.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir H. YOUNG

I beg to move, in page 57, line 17, to leave out from the word "date" to the word "and" in line 19.

This is the Amendment of the definition of existing buildings of which I have already forewarned the House. We have in earlier parts of the Bill provided for the extension of "existing buildings" to buildings which were there within the two years preceding the material date, and the words of the Amendment are no longer needed in the Definition Clause.

Amendment agreed to.