HC Deb 06 June 1932 vol 266 cc1603-13
The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the MINISTRY of HEALTH (Mr. Ernest Brown)

I beg to move, in page 25, line 20, after the word "prohibits," to insert the words: (otherwise than by way of prohibition of building operations). This carries out a pledge given in the Committee stage upstairs to make it quite clear that land only is dealt with. Building operations are dealt with in sub-paragraph (e). The next Amendment is consequential upon this.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 25,. line 22, after the word "restricts," insert the words: (otherwise than by way of restriction of building operations)."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 25, line 27, to leave out the word "prescribes," and to insert instead thereof the words: in the interests of safety regulates or empowers the responsible authority to regulate. This Amendment with four others is intended to bring the language of the sub-paragraph into line with that of Section 4 of the Roads Improvement Act of 1925. They extend the sub-paragraph to walls and hedges as defined in subsequent Amendments, and to bends as well as corners. One of the Amendments excludes highways which, at the material date, were maintainable at the public expense.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 25, line 27, after the word "proposed," insert the word "walls."

In line 28, after the word "fences," insert the words "or hedges."

After the word "corners," insert the words "or bends."

Leave out from the word "roads" to the word "or," in line 31, and insert instead thereof the words: other than highways maintainable at the material date by the Minister of Transport, a county council, or other highway authority."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

The MINISTER of HEALTH (Sir Hilton Young)

I beg to move, in page 25, line 33, to leave out the words, "Class 1 or Class 2 road," and to insert instead thereof the words: classified road, or a road, or the site of a proposed road which is declared by the Minister of Transport to be intended to be a classified road. This is an Amendment which is a little more than drafting. It first substitutes what I understand is the proper term of art, namely, a classified road, for a Class 1 or Class 2 road; that is mainly drafting. Secondly, it deals with a case which has to be swept up, that is, where roads are not actually made when a scheme comes into operation and roads which, though made at that date, have not been brought by the Minister of Transport into the category of classified roads. The Minister of Transport does not actually classify a road until the existing circumstances warrant this course, but it is important that roads which would obviously, in the ordinary course of development, become classified should not be spoilt by the entry of unnecessary side roads. The Amendment therefore empowers the Minister of Transport to declare that a road was intended to be a classified road and thereby secure its protection.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 26, line 2, to leave out the word "or."

This and the next Amendment make the part of the Sub-paragraph run: the provision of accommodation for loading, unloading or fuelling vehicles. It was agreed in Committee that the Sub-paragraph ought to cover the case of motor vehicles stopping to pick up petrol.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 26, line 2, leave out the word "standing," and insert instead thereof the words "or fuelling."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Mr. SPEAKER

The next Amend-merit on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Smith-Carington)—in page 26, line 4, at the end, to insert the words: Provided that no provision made in a scheme tinder the authority of this Subsection shall enable a responsible authority to prohibit or restrict the continuance of the existing use of an existing building without the payment by the responsible authority of compensation "— creates a charge and is, therefore, not in order.

Sir H. YOUNG

I beg to move, in page 26, line 5, to leave out from the word "Minister" to the word "provision," in line 13, and to insert instead thereof the words: shall not approve the insertion in a scheme of a provision excluding compensation under the last preceding Sub-section or himself insert in a scheme such a provision—

  1. (i) unless he is satisfied that, having regard to the objects of the scheme, the provision in respect of which compensation is to be excluded is proper and reasonable;
  2. (ii) if the provision in respect of which compensation is to be excluded is such a."

This is a consequential Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 26, line 17, at the beginning, to insert the words "reasonable alterations and".

In the Debate on Clause 19 in Standing Committee it was represented that the words "in proper cases" would enable the Minister to exclude compensation in respect of a provision which in some cases prevented any alteration from being made to an existing building. This Amendment is a transposition of words to make the intention quite clear.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 26, line 17, leave out the words "reasonable alterations and"—[Mr. E. Brown].

Sir H. YOUNG

I beg to move, in page 26, line 20, after the word "building," to insert the words: or a building which was standing within two years before the material date. This Amendment is to carry out a pledge given by me in Committee to bring the owners of buildings which were standing within two years before the material date into as good a position as regards compensation as owners of buildings standing at the material date. I make special mention of the Amendment because it was originally thought that this alteration could be effected by means of an alteration of the definition of "existing buildings," but it is found to be better drafting and clearer to introduce it by several Amendments actually in the body of the Bill. The House will find that incorporated there, and then they will find the words are taken out of the definition, but the effect is the same and carries out the pledge given in Committee.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 26, line 28, leave out the word "existing," and insert instead thereof the word "previous."

In line 32, leave out the words "for an existing building."

In line 34, leave out the word "existing," and insert instead thereof the word "previous."

In line 41, leave out the word "and".—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, in page 26, line 41, at the end, to insert the words: () shall not make a declaration with respect to any such provision as is mentioned in paragraph (d) of the said Subsection where it is shown to his satisfaction that expenditure has prior to the material date been incurred or contracted to be incurred upon or preliminary to building operations. Clause 18 gives compensation, and Clause 19 takes it away in certain cases. It is unfair, where an owner has contracted to incur certain expense or has incurred an expense in fact, that he is not to be allowed to have compensation, and I propose the insertion of these words so as to give him the right to compensation where he has either actually incurred or contracted to incur certain expenditure.

Mr. RHYS

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. SPEAKER

If the Amendment allows compensation where otherwise it was not allowed, it would be out of order by increasing the charge.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

It prevents the Minister refusing compensation, but the compensation given is given in the previous Clause.

Mr. SPEAKER

It is so remote, that I will allow the hon. and gallant Member to move it.

Sir H. YOUNG

This matter was fully discussed in Committee, and I understood that the hon. and gallant Member was satisfied. I am afraid that I cannot accept the Amendment for all that is really of any substance in it is already met in the Bill. "Existing building" and "existing work" are so defined in the Bill as to include not only a building or work actually existing at the time of the material date, but also a building or work in course of erection or construction, or even—and this is a further extension which covers every possible case—for the erection or construction of which a contract has been made. I do not think that we can sweep the net any wider than that, particularly in view of the circumstance that if my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendment were passed we would be conferring a right to claim compensation under circumstances which would be detrimental to the general interest of the community. This Amendment goes beyond the limits of what can practically be dealt with in the Bill as it stands.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made:

In page 27, line 1, leave out from the beginning, to the word "provision," in line 2, and insert instead thereof the words: if the provision in respect of which compensation is to be excluded is such a.

In line 3, leave out the words "being a," and insert instead thereof the words "in so far as that."

In line 4, leave out the word "which."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to move, in page 27, line 6, after the word "underground," to insert the words "or surface."

This and the following Amendment in my name, to leave out lines 7 to 16, which deal with the winning of minerals by surface working, hang together. Under paragraph (a) the Minister cannot pre- vent compensation being given when the scheme prohibits or restricts the winning of minerals by underground working. There seems to be no reason why there should be any distinction between underground and overground working. If the words "or surface" are put in paragraph (a), the subsequent paragraphs (b) and (c) will be unnecessary.

Mr. TRAIN

I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir H. YOUNG

This is a matter which received very careful attention in Committee, although not in this precise form. I am proposing in a subsequent Amendment to make a change to meet a point which the Noble Lord the Member for West Derbyshire (Marquess of Hartington) desired to make, but which he was unable to make, in Committee. I am afraid that I could not advise the House to go so far as to make the much wider alteration proposed in these Amendments. There is a substantial differentiation between surface working and underground working. Underground workings do not interfere with the amenities of the surface over a large area, whereas surface workings do very much characterise a neighbourhood. The principal surface workings are the getting of gravel, and that is a matter over which, I think, it is perfectly legitimate to give power to local authorities. The power which is given is carefully hedged in the Bill. Compensation under the Bill can only be excluded so far as the provisions prohibit or restrict surface working of minerals, firstly, in a residential area. That brings such workings within a very narrow range of cases, and it is this limit which I shall still further reduce in view of the point taken in Committee. Secondly, compensation can only be excluded in so far as the land had not before the material date been acquired for the purposes of winning minerals or the right to win them had not been acquired. We cannot therefore interfere with any existing working or any accrued interest in working. We cannot disappoint any legitimate expectations.

Mr. CHARLES WILLIAMS

The clay pits in the West of England may be affected by this provision. It is a technical position, and I would like the Minister to look into it so that that industry should not suffer no handicap in any way.

Mr. RHYS

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman does not think that underground workings do not affect the surface. Anybody who is acquainted with colliery districts knows endless cases of subsidence of houses perhaps half a mile or a mile away from the pithead and at a great lateral distance from the colliery underground. It is not right to say that underground working do not affect the surface; they do very materially.

Sir H. YOUNG

In reply to the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams), clay-pits will have the same protection as surface workings for gravel. You cannot interfere with existing pits but only with a new pit which is opened in a residential area. I am prepared to consider any special circumstances to which the hon. Member draws my attention. In reply to the other question, I recognise that there are conditions under which underground workings affect surface amenities, but it is not thought right to interfere with so wide an interest.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments made:

In page 27, line 8, leave out from the word "land," to the word "the," in line 9.

In line 10, after the word "working," insert the words: unless the land is reserved by the scheme, and has been substantially developed, for residential purposes.

In line 16, leave out the word "and."

In line 17, leave out from the beginning to the word "provision," in line 18, and insert instead thereof the words: if the provision in respect of which compensation is to be excluded is such a.

In line 19, leave out "(h)," and insert "(i)."—[Mr. E. Brown.]

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 27, line 20, to leave out the words "that in proper cases," and to insert instead thereof the words: if representations are made to him in any particular case, and the case appears to him to be a proper one, that. 4.0 p.m.

The effect of this Amendment is to limit the cases in which the Minister must be satisfied that reasonable means of access to a highway is provided to those cases in which his attention is called by representation being made to him. As a matter of practical administration, the House will understand that it would be impossible for the inspectors of the Department to examine every case whether the point has been raised or not.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. E. BROWN

I beg to move, in page 27, line 23, to leave out from the beginning to the word "provision," in line 24, and to insert instead thereof the words: if the provision in respect of which compensation is to be excluded is such a. This Amendment is consequential upon one that was made on Friday.

Sir STAFFORD CRIPPS

Will the hon. Member be good enough to tell us upon what this Amendment is consequential? It is very difficult to follow these Amendments so rapidly. We have just been told that this one is consequent upon something which happened on Friday. If the hon. Member will tell us what it is, we can judge whether we should pass the Amendment.

Sir H. YOUNG

This is an Amendment which is consequential upon an Amendment in page 24, line 39, to leave out from the word "Section" to the word "either" in line 41, and to insert instead thereof the words "a scheme may provide." That Amendment and several consequential Amendments of a drafting nature are to carry out an undertaking given on behalf of the Government that any provision excluding compensation should be part of the scheme and not detached from it, and to ensure that that provision of the scheme should be subjected to the same procedure as the scheme itself.

Sir S. CRIPPS

I am much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir H. YOUNG

I beg to move, in page 27, line 25, after the word "Subsection," to insert the words "and so far as concerns any particular land."

This Amendment and the next Amendment are really drafting Amendments. In accepting the principle of an Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Rhys) in Committee to add paragraph (v) to Sub-section (2) of this Clause, I stated that re-drafting would have to be considered, and this is the form of drafting now suggested in order to meet the point.

Amendment agreed to.

Sir H. YOUNG:

I beg to move, in page 27, line 26, to leave out from the word "him" to the end of the paragraph, and to insert instead thereof the words: as respects that land, that it will be practicable notwithstanding the provision to erect thereon a building which is suitable having regard to the other provisions of the scheme governing the development of that land.

Mr. RHYS

This Amendment raises a rather important question with regard to the development of land. Might I point out that paragraph (k) gives the Minister power to exclude compensation where a building line is fixed? The Roads Improvement Act, 1925, decided that compensation should be given where a building line is proposed. I endeavoured to ascertain whether this Sub-section would not, in fact, deprive an owner of the right of compensation which Parliament decided he should have under the Act of 1925, and I think it was found, upon investigation, that the Sub-section might have the effect of depriving an owner of that compensation. In passing, I would like to enter a protest, if I may, at the tendency which sometimes grows up to repeal in effect past legislation by means of such Sub-sections. I readily recognise, however, that when I drew the right hon. Gentleman's attention to this, he immediately realised the justice of the contention I put forward. I have on the Order Paper an Amendment dealing with the same point, but varying the wording slightly. My own view is that there should be no Amendment whatever to paragraph (v). I should like to see retained the words "former capacity" inserted in Committee on an Amendment I myself moved; but I know that the Government will, of course, carry their Amendment which has just been moved, and therefore I have endeavoured to modify it slightly.

The point I would like to put is this: Where a building line is set back, and there is not sufficient depth of land left, owing, let us say, to a quarry or embankment behind the road, to erect the suitable kind of house that could have been put up had the building line not been prescribed by the local authority, then compensation should be payable. I used the words "former capacity" because I am very anxious to encourage the provision of gardens for houses, and I am very much afraid that under the Minister's new Amendment, and, indeed, under my own, which only slightly modifies the Minister's, you would get a crowding of buildings on the land without sufficient space being left for gardens, which otherwise could have been allotted to the House. That is not a very desirable tendency. I think that in all possible cases we ought to encourage gardens. Perhaps the words "building or buildings" cover the inclusion of gardens. I should like to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has to say on that point, and whether he would take my Amendment instead of his own. It would go a slight way towards satisfying an undoubted grievance which has arisen, and go some way towards satisfying the point that this Bill repeals existing legislation in this respect.

Sir H. YOUNG

I may, perhaps, shorten the discussion. As I explained to my hon. Friend, although this Amendment is necessary, I think, for the sake of the drafting of the Bill, it is my intention to accept his next Amendment which deals with the point which he says is not satisfactory to him, but is more satisfactory than nothing. I, therefore, beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. RHYS

I beg to move, in page 27, line 26, to leave out from the word "him" to the end of the paragraph, and to insert instead thereof the words: as respects that land that it will be practicable notwithstanding the provision to erect thereon such a building or buildings which are suitable, having regard to the other provisions of the scheme governing the development of that land.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 27, line 34, after the first word "in," insert the words "paragraph (ii) of."

In line 36, leave out the words "an existing," and insert instead thereof the words "a previous."

In page 28, line 9, after the first word "in, "insert the words" paragraph (ii) of."

In line 19, leave out from the word "to," to the word "the," in line 21, and insert instead thereof the words: approve the insertion in a scheme of a provision excluding compensation or ought himself to insert such a provision.

In line 24, after the word "provision," insert the words "in respect of which compensation is excluded."

In line 27, at the end, insert the words "in respect of which compensation is ex-eluded."—[Mr. E. Brown.]