CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS [MONEY]. (Hansard, 12 February 1932)

Mr. STANLEY

I hope hon. Members will allow me to say a few words in explanation of this Financial Resolution and in amplification of the Financial Memorandum which is to be found with the Bill. They will no doubt observe that, far from having to spend money as a result of this Bill, we estimate that there will be a reduction of some £ 8,000 a year. The hon. Lady the Member for the Sutton Division (Viscountess Astor) said that we boasted of that reduction. I want to make it plain that the economy is purely incidental to the changes decided upon, not that the changes are incidental to the economy. It is clear that the financial effect of a Bill of this character must be largely a matter of conjecture. There is no direct extra charge on the taxpayer. As far as we can estimate there is no increase in administrative costs. Variations in their financial arrangements as far as the Treasury is concerned are caused by alterations in the number of the school population and the consequent alterations in the financial arrangements made with local authorities. Obviously, that must be largely, a matter of conjecture. We have made the most accurate estimate possible, but it is quite clear it may be altered by an increase or decrease in the number of offences, by a different policy on the part of magistrates or by an alteration in the cost of living.

Let me point out the main headings under which these changes are to be found. The facts of the increased expenditure are two. There is the inclusion of the new age group of 16 to 17. Our estimate, based on the estimated number of young offenders who will be sent to industrial schools, their average school life and the cost of maintenance, is that it will cost the Treasury an extra £23,000 a year. The other provision of expenditure is that which now makes the local education authority the body to whose charge children can be committed and which empowers the Treasury to make to the education authority grants in respect of the maintenance of those children. That is estimated to add £ 25,000 to our expenditure. Those two provisions will increase expenditure to 1248 £48,000. On the other hand we have savings which come from proposals which tend to reduce the school population. They are the shorter periods of detention, the fact that, save in exceptional circumstances, children will not be allowed to be sent to an approved school if below the age of 10, and the fact that, whereas certain offenders between the ages of 16 and 17 are now sent to Borstal, they will in future be sent to these approved schools. We estimate these savings to be £ 56,500 a year. That leaves a net balance in our favour of £ 8,500. From that we have to deduct an estimated sum of £ 400 which will be the loss of funds to the Treasury by the establishment of juvenile courts in Scotland. This statement gives, roughly, the total of £ 8,000 saving shown in the Financial Memorandum.

A few words about the local authorities. Under normal conditions and in normal times our financial arrangements with local authorities in the case of these schools are on a fifty-fifty basis. The local authorities, however, for various reasons will benefit less, will get a less saving, than the Treasury obtains. That is largely because the whole saving is due to the fact that the 16-17 children will no longer go to Borstal and the saving will accrue to the Treasury. These figures, it is estimated, are savings both to the Treasury and to the local authorities, and we believe them to be accurate as far as the country as a whole are concerned, but it has become clear since the Bill was first circulated that the effects will be different in different parts of the country, that some local authorities will obtain a lesser saving than others. It is clear that in the case of an important local authority there will be not only no saving but a not inconsiderable burden. We are at present in consultation with that local authority to see whether, if not in this Bill by some other administrative action, we can prevent the effect of the passage of the Bill being any increase in present expenditure. The figures which I have given are the final figures. They are the figures which will be accurate in six or seven years, when the full effect of all these proposals has been felt. The effect next year and the year after will be considerably less, but we shall go nearer to these figures over the period of six or seven years until we reach the stabilisation 1249 point. I hope that; with that explanation, hon. Members will be prepared to give us this Resolution.

§ Mr. E. T. CAMPBELL

I am very pleased to welcome this Bill. A great deal of it is excellent and, while certain things have been left out, I think that it might be inadvisable to include some of the matters suggested by certain hon. Members because It would only raise controversy to do so. I would ask the Home Office in connection with these approved schools as they are called—I do not like that name by the way and I hope that it will be altered— to pay more attention to recreation and sport. We want these children to be normal children like our own. All of us in our time have been naughty in one way or another. I have an honourable and gallant brother in this House, as Member for Burnley (Rear-Admiral Campbell) and he was one of the naughtiest boys I ever came across. But look at him now. What these children require is more normal treatment. I also hope 1250 that in the arrangements as regards magistrates, attention will be given to the fact that they ought not to be antiquated men, or old women of either sex, but people who have worked in connection with boys' clubs and girls' clubs, and the scout movement, and who know boys and girls both in school and out of school. I have very great pleasure in supporting the Resolution.