THE MINT. (Hansard, 11 February 1932)

§ Major ELLIOT
It was the desire of the House that I should give some preliminary explanation of these Votes. In this Vote the small sum of £14,000 represents expenses incidental to the supply of coinage to New Zealand. It has been decided that we shall share any profit on the issue of token coins in common with any Dominion using United Kingdom token coins. £14,000 falls to be paid to New Zealand under this heading. The 1075 larger sum of £1,000,000 odd is for the calling in of coinage which on previous occasions has excited the wrath of the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman). We are replacing it with more suitable coinage. It was the desire of Members in many parts of the House that that should be done. I hope that the hon. Member, having had his desire acceded to, will not wish to pursue this matter further on this occasion. I might add that 120 men who otherwise would have been discharged have been kept at work in connection with this matter. The Mint is recoining coinage which was admittedly unsatisfactory, and it is affording employment to skilled workmen who would otherwise be unemployed.

§ Sir CHARLES OMAN
I do not intend to waste the time of the House as some Members have been doing this afternoon.

§ Mr. COCKS
Is it in order for the hon. Member to make those remarks?

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
You do not expect anything else from the Universities.

§ Sir C. OMAN
I must begin by expressing my extreme joy and gratitude that the coins with the copper cores, the coins of 1922 to 1926, are being withdrawn. If employment is being found at the Mint for 120 men in getting rid of those abominable exhibitions of bad art and bad metal I can only rejoice.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
And bad men.

§ Sir C. OMAN
I cannot follow the hon. Member.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
You ought to learn English.

§ Sir C. OMAN
I will in return give a quotation from the works of Gilbert which will appeal to the hon. Member: Of such as him the poet wrote Hech awfu rantin rawkie He'd theck ta croon with clapperheid And fash the unco pawkie.

§ Mr. DEVLIN
On a point of Order. Am I to be allowed to stand up and recite "The Battle of Fontenoy"?

§ Sir C. OMAN
Let me be more serious. My point was this: I cannot see why the Government should want this extra money, when the vast sum that is pass- 1076 ing through the Mint's budget, as shown by these figures, is at its disposal. The Government have withdrawn great sums of Victorian and Edwardian money, of the good old standard, the old sterling that went back to the Middle Ages, and which had only 12 pennyweights of alloy in the lb. On every coin of that kind that comes back, one-half is recoined into a new coinage, and the other half remains as bullion at the disposal of the Government. £3,200,000 worth of old Victorian and Edwardian money have been withdrawn. I do not understand whether that £3,200,000 is to include some of the base metal of 1922 to 1924. In any case I know that great quantities of Victorian and Edwardian money are being withdrawn, because again and again at the bank I have been told that they are handling very little but the coinage of more recent issues, and that the Victorian stuff, which was of good metal, is going back to the Mint. Large sums from Ireland, South Africa and Australia are being sent to be dealt with as old metal. It is clear that whenever a Victorian shilling is melted down one-half goes to the making of a new coin; in other words, that shilling is converted into two George V shillings.

§ Major ELLIOT
This coinage operation refers merely to post-War coinage, and therefore the profit which the hon. Member suggests does not arise. It is merely the scrapping of the coinage which the hon. Member dislikes. All that is already of what he would call baser metal, and therefore his anticipated profit does not arise. That is the reason why the sum is required here and why no profit is shown.

§ Sir C. OMAN
But there is a cross account. There is an enormous profit coming from the melted Victorian money. If there is a certain loss in getting rid of the later and baser stuff the right hon. Gentleman should rejoice. But it has not yet all disappeared. I have a terrible thing, showing copper through through the face of it, in my pocket now. No doubt it will all disappear. If I am assured that this Vote has no reference to anything except the recoinage of the bad metal of 1922 to 1926, I must express my gratitude. I cannot say that I regret to have brought the subject forward. An explanation was necessary, and I shall not take too much blame on myself for having elicited that information.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
I do not know whether I understood aright what the right hon. Gentleman said. Do I understand that this expenditure of rather over £1,000.000 in the employment of 120 men is being made in order to satisfy some hon. Members of this House?

§ Major ELLIOT
There is £1,000,000 on one side and an appropriation of £1,000,000 on the other side. There is no expenditure of £1,000,000.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
That cannot be quite accurate, because the right hon. Gentleman said that by this arrangement it had been possible to retain 120 men in employment at the Mint. I presume that they were not retained for nothing, and I hope that the Mint pays adequate wages to these men. Do I understand that in this time of economy, in order to satisfy the numismatic ambitions of the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman), the Mint is employing 120 men who might otherwise be more usefully employed?

§ Major ELLIOT
The point is that they would not be otherwise usefully employed. In fact this was not merely arranged to satisfy the numismatic ambitions of my hon. Friend. It was because these coins were technically unsatisfactory for their purpose. It was not merely the numismatists, but those who had the practical use of these coins, both in the country and in the bank, who objected to them. It was a policy agreed to by all parties that the coins should he withdrawn and replaced.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
Let me ask one other question. When these new coins are being issued are any steps being taken to improve the design? This seems to be an opportunity when the coinage of this country might have a decent design on its face; or are we going to continue the somewhat ornate and elaborate design which disfigures the coinage now? Not very long ago a new design which is generally thought to be wholly unsatisfactory and nothing like up to the standard of the Irish coinage, has been used in this country. Can the Financial Secretary say whether the opportunity is being utilised in order to get a new, more attractive and more suitable design on the coins?

§ Major ELLIOT
I am afraid that had we done so we should have incurred the censure which I have only narrowly averted, from the hon. and learned Gentleman because of extravagance in which at the present time we are not entitled to indulge. No doubt we should desire to see other designs on the coinage, but I do not think it would be possible to justify that additional expenditure at this moment. Consequently we are not embarking on new coinage designs, but are merely bringing up to a satisfactory standard the existing coinage in accordance with a pledge given by successive Parliaments.

§ Mr. HANNON
Would I be in order in calling attention to the extent to which the Mint enters into competition with private enterprise in making medals for example?

§ The CHAIRMAN
No, I think not.

§ Mr. LOGAN
Is it the baser metal that we are using here? If so, it is not silver at all, and the coinage will be lead coinage?

§ Major ELLIOT
It is merely for technical purposes that this Vote is being asked for. It is merely a token Vote.

§ Mr. LOGAN
As economy is so vital one would imagine that there would be no necessity, with the enhanced value of the finer metals, to come forward to-day and to ask for any such amount as this. If one were allowed to go into the Mint it is quite possible that one might be able to save at least £100 from the residuum in the tubes and in the aprons of the workers. One Birmingham factory has been able to build a new factory out of the spare gold and silver that was found lying about.

§ Major ELLIOT
I would not be in order in going into the whole question of the administration of the Mint, whether we shall pull it down or -whether we propose to build a new Mint.

§ Mr. TINKER
I am not yet fully satisfied as regards this Vote. The Financial Secretary has tried to explain that certain coins have been withdrawn for re-coinage, and I gathered that it was through the hon. Member for Oxford University (Sir C. Oman) that this was being done.

§ Major ELLIOT
No.

§ Mr. TINKER
At any rate, that is what I understood, though the right hon. and gallant Gentleman afterwards said that it was on account of this coinage not being satisfactory. I wish to know whether permission has been given by Parliament for this operation? Apparently this expense has been incurred. I wish to know whether, when the Mint decides to re-coin, they get permission to do so from this House, or do they act "on their own" and then ask Parliament to find the money? If that is the case I think it is wrong. There are many other things besides coinage which want putting in order. There is housing, for instance. There is a lot of old property—

§ The CHAIRMAN
The hon. Member must know that that question does not arise on this Estimate.

§ Mr. TINKER
I desire, then, to know who gives permission for the Mint to set about re-coinage operations.

§ Major ELLIOT
The Master of the Mint gives orders for the operations carried out by the Mint and the House of Commons gives its sanction for those operations. The Committee is now being asked to sanction this particular operation.

§ Mr. TINKER
I take it that this operation has already been carried out.

§ Major ELLIOT
Oh, no!

§ Mr. TINKER
I understood the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that a certain number of men had been kept in work for a certain period becouse of this change. If the operation has not been carried out then, of course, my question is all wrong, but if this has been done the Financial Secretary is in the wrong.

§ Major ELLIOT
The men are going to be kept in work because the Mint authorities, like prudent employers, look ahead and work out their programme so as to enable them to maintain their staff. When contracts are running out they look for contracts which they can bring forward to employ their men.

§ Mr. KIRKWOOD
Is not that reply tantamount to what the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) has suggested? They may not have finished this job but they have started the job before they had permission from Parliament to do so. No Department of the Government has a right to do anything of the kind. They have no right to spend money without the sanction of the House of Commons. It has always been recognised that the power over finance is the outstanding power which the House of Commons still retains even over the House of Lords. All power to spend money rests with the House of Commons.

§ Major ELLIOT
Surely the hon. Member realises that the House of Commons has already voted money for this Department from which its expenditure can be met. It is our desire to have this operation, as a matter of administration, brought before the House of Commons, but it will not, in fact, involve the expenditure of any money beyond that which has already been authorised by the House of Commons for this Department.

§ Mr. COCKS
Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us the percentage of alloy in these coins which are now being recoined. May I also ask if it would not be possible to go back to the old degree of fineness?

§ The CHAIRMAN
That is a matter which would require legislation.

§ Major ELLIOT
The standard of fineness of the silver coin is 500 per 1,000. The alloy is a quaternary alloy containing silver, copper and some nickel.