HC Deb 11 February 1932 vol 261 cc1080-4

Motion made and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £156,975, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1932, for Rates and Contributions in lieu of Rates, etc., in respect of property in the occupation of the Crown for the Public Service, and for Rates on Buildings occupied by Representatives of British Dominions and of Foreign Powers; and to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Rating of Government Property Department, and a Grant-in-Aid of the Expenses of the London Fire Brigade.

Major ELLIOT

I am sure that this Vote will meet with the hearty approval of Members in all parts of the Committee. This provision is required to meet payments in excess of the amounts for which provision was made in the original Estimate, in respect of increased rates and contributions for the current year and arrears of contributions for the past year, in consequence of the revaluation of property under the Rating and Valuation Act of 1925. After that Act had been passed a general re-valuation of property was undertaken. The Treasury valuer in making his valuation of Government property, has to have regard to the basis of valuation and to the rules for the assessment of private property which have been adopted in each of the rating areas. He cannot undertake his valuation until the local valuation has been completed or is approaching completion, That is the reason for the delay. This lag in the valuation of Government property has necessitated the payment of arrears of contributions for the years 1929 and 1930. We could not make a reliable estimate until we had made an actual inspection of the properties concerned. The estimate which was first made was on the conservative side, and we find that a somewhat larger amount has to be paid. I am sure, as I say, that this Vote will meet with the approval of hon. Members as it is right that the Government should make an adequate contribution towards local expenditure.

Mr. ATTLEE

The right hon. and gallant Gentleman has not told us anything about the appropriations-in-aid and I should like to know how these arise. I should like him also to give us further information with regard to the grant-in-aid of the expenses of the London Fire Brigade. Is that in respect of Government property and Government buildings, and, if so, is there any contribution to any other local fire brigade in the country in respect of services which might be or have been rendered in connection with Government buildings? On the general question of the valuation am I right in thinking that this Vote has become necessary, merely because the basis of valuation has changed and that there is no change in the system whereby contributions in lieu of rates are decided, more or less at the sweet will of the Government without any reference to the general valuation or to the valuation of local authorities? When I was a member of a local authority we had constant complaints about Government property not being fully valued. Is this increase due to any real change in the basis of valuation or is it incidental to the re-valuations which are made periodically?

Major ELLIOT

The increase in the appropriations-in-aid is largely due to such things as recoveries from third parties who were in part occupation of Government property. These are minor sums but, taking into account the extent of Government property, they reach a considerable total. I should not be in order in going into the question of the London Fire Brigade on this Vote, because no part of this Supplementary Estimate is concerned with that grant-in-aid. As to the hon. Member's third point, namely, whether this change is due to any change in the system or merely to a change in the valuation I may say that it is not due to any change in the system. It is due to the Government doing their utmost to co-operate and to ensure that Government property should bear its fair share, where that is necessary, of the increased assessments which have been made throughout the country as a result of the Rating and Valuation Act.

Mr. MORGAN JONES

I understand from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that there is a desire on the part of the Government to consider rather more adequately than hitherto, the proper share of the contributions which they ought to make to local rates. May I ask him whether this new figure has been arrived at after consultation with the local authorities or is it an ex gratia payment by the Government? With the growth in the amount of legislation devolving on local authorities more and more Government buildings are being erected and it is important that greater recognition should be made on the part of the Government of their responsibility for contributing to local rates.

Mr. T. WILLIAMS

Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman tell us what was the grant-in-aid of the expenses of the London Fire Brigade?

The CHAIRMAN

As the right hon. and gallant Gentleman himself has said he would not be in order in answering that question.

Mr. WILLIAMS

May I ask, then, why these words, "Grant-in-Aid of the Expenses of the London Fire Brigade" appear in the heading to this Estimate?

The CHAIRMAN

That is the usual form but the Committee is confined in this discussion to the particular purpose for which the Supplementary Estimate is required. The grant-in-aid referred to was in the original Estimate but we are here dealing only with the Supplementary Estimate.

Major ELLIOT

In reply to the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Morgan Jones), there is no change in the system. The payments made on behalf of Government property are ex gratia and remain ex gratia payments, but they are worked out with what is considered to be a reasonable correspondence with the payments made for similar properties elsewhere. In fact the local authorities are consulted while these valuations are being made.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

I wish to ask the Financial Secretary if in Edinburgh, the capital of Scotland, it is left to the Government to say what rates they will pay on Government buildings, or is it a matter for the City Assessor to assess the value of those buildings? Who declares the rates which are payable upon those buildings? Is the practice the same as it is in regard to buildings which are outwith the control of a Government Department?

The CHAIRMAN

I do not wish to prevent the Financial Secretary from answering that question, but I must point out that there is a Standing Order against repetition and that the Financial Secretary not only made a clear statement on this subject in his opening remarks but has since been asked the question twice and has twice replied to it.

Major ELLIOT

In the case of Edinburgh, as in the case of any other city, Government property is assessed by the Treasury valuer and not by the city authority.

Mr. KIRKWOOD

With all due respect may I ask you, Mr. Chairman, if that question was answered before I put it to the Minister?

The CHAIRMAN

Yes, it was answered but without being confined to the City of Edinburgh.

Question put, and agreed to.