§ Sir ROBERT HAMILTON(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a Bill has been introduced into the Legislative Council of Kenya and has been set down for Second Reading on Wednesday, 21st December, whereby it is proposed to amend the Native Land Trust Ordinance, so that, (1) land leased for mineral development may be temporarily excluded from a Native Reserve without the provision of an equivalent area of land in exchange, and (2) the requirement of notice to the local native council concerned is repealed; whether these proposals are made with the approval of the Secretary of State, and whether the question of amendment of the existing Land Trust Ordinance has been considered by the Morris Carter Commission?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAs the hon. Member will recall, the Kenya Native Lands Trust Ordinance deals only with surface rights. The amending Bill to which he refers has been introduced with my approval as an interim Measure to deal with immediate practical difficulties which might operate to retard the development of valuable minerals, the property in which is vested in the Crown. The amendments proposed to the principal Ordinance are two. The first provides that land may be temporarily excluded from a Reserve for mining leases, and that compensation for such temporary exclusions may be paid in money instead of in the form of an addition of land. Under the second amendment it will not be necessary for the Central Lands Trust Board to bring a proposed temporary exclusion to the notice of the local native council or the natives concerned; but each particular exclusion will have to be considered by the local board, on which the natives of the location or section concerned must be represented. Moreover, the chief native commissioner has already circulated to natives in the province a memorandum explaining in clear and simple language the process of prospecting licences and mining leases and how the interests of the natives will be safeguarded; and the Governor has himself met the natives and explained matters to them. I think it will be agreed that no more effective measures could have been taken to bring 912 the whole policy to the notice of the natives concerned.
The provisions of the Bill have been agreed to both by the Morris Carter Commission and by the Central Lands Trust Board and I am satisfied that the arrangements for compensation and consultation provide ample safeguards for the interests of the native occupants of the areas in question.
§ Mr. LUNNWhat was the opinion expressed by the natives when the Governor met them? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this Ordinance, which is only two years old, which scheduled the land as between the natives and the settlers was regarded as the natives' Magna Charta, and is he going to allow it to be violated, as they feel it is being violated, by this concession which is being given because there happens to be gold in the area?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI must say I think the hon. Gentleman has completely misconceived the purpose of the Ordinance and the opinion of the natives. After all, the Ordinance was made for the natives and not the natives for the Ordinance. What has happened is this. Valuable gold has been discovered on this tract of land, which is a part of the great native reserve. That gold is vested in the Crown. It is going to be worked. It is in the interest of everyone, and not least of the natives, that it should be worked, and I should be guilty of the greatest dereliction of duty if on a technical point I held up a development which is primarily in the interests of the natives?
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSIs the gold to be mined on behalf and in the interest of the natives?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERAll minerals belong to the Crown. Therefore, it will be for the Crown to grant the leases, and to secure in such leases proper terms of remuneration for the Crown, as any other landlord would.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODThe right hon. Gentleman knows how suspicious natives are on the question of their land and how much they pin their faith to the Ordinance. Has he done, or can he do anything to get native approval of the change that has been made, and an understanding of the fact that it is not an infringement of their Magna Charta?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERI said in my answer that the Governor has explained to them personally—the best way to make them understand is to go among them and talk to them—and that the Governor has done and the Chief Native Commissioner has issued a memorandum which is really simplicity itself—I never saw a better document—setting out the whole position. That will be issued to them in their own language, and those who can read are invited to communicate the substance of it to the old men who cannot read. I am quite certain that nothing more could be done by the Government, not only to let the natives know, but to safeguard their interests.
§ Mr. LUNNIs the right hon. Gentleman able to say how much land is to be taken from the natives, and whether or not an equivalent amount of land of equal value, or compensation, will be given to them?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTEROf course, nobody can tell when a goldfield has just been discovered how much land will be taken. Certainly, wherever land is available, the natives will be settled on other land. If there should be cases where it is not possible to find land for them, they will get full compensation, and the compensation will be at least as good as would be paid to any white settler if his land were taken.
§ Sir H. CROFTIn view of the distress among the natives in East Africa owing to the drop in prices of the commodities of white settlers, will my right hon. Friend do nothing to prevent this great boon to the natives which undoubtedly will come and which is eagerly sought after?
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERYes, Sir. I am glad that my hon. and gallant Friend has put that question. No one is going to benefit more than the native, who will get compensation to start with for any land which is taken. It will be very adequate compensation, and probably a combination of land and money. He will be employed at remunerative rates of wages if this is developed, and he will find an admirable market for produce which is selling at knock-out prices to-day.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIn order that the House and the people of this country may 914 have an opportunity of reading it, will the right hon. Gentleman print the Bill which has been introduced, and also the statement which he tells us the Chief Native Commissioner has circulated among the natives and any other papers dealing with the subject, in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTERWhat I suggest doing is to put copies of the original Ordinance, the amending Ordinance and of this Memorandum, which I would like everybody to see, in the Library. I am not sure that the printing in the OFFICIAL REPORT of a very technical Bill, with references to another Bill, would be very intelligible to people, but I think that if I put the Bill in the Library it will suffice.
§ Colonel WEDGWOODIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the natives in East Africa do not suffer from unemployment but from too much employment?