§ Mr. LANSBURYMay I ask the Lord President of the Council if he will kindly tell us what will be the business for next week?
§ Mr. BALDWINMonday: Committee stage of the Supplementary Estimates for the Ministry of Labour and for Irish Free State Services; Committee stage of Ways and Means Resolution.
Tuesday: Austrian Loan (Guarantee) Money Resolution, Committee stage; Report stage of Supplementary Estimates for Irish Free State Services and Ministry of Labour; Report stage of Ways and Means Resolution.
Wednesday: After private Members Motions, Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund Bill, and Report stage of the Austrian Loan (Guarantee) Money Resolution.
On Thursday, it is proposed that the House shall meet at Eleven o'Clock in the morning, when the remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be taken, and the Motion for the Christmas Adjournment until Tuesday, the 7th February, 1933.
I may add, for the information of the House, that, in order to meet the general desire to take the Adjournment Motion on Thursday of next week, conversations have passed through the usual channels with regard to the arrangement of business. It would appear to meet the general convenience that the Unemployment Debate should take place on the Committee stage of the Supplementary Estimate on Monday, and that that on the Irish Free State Supplementary Estimate should be taken on the Report stage on Tuesday, the Committee stage being passed formally on Monday night.
§ Mr. LANSBURYMay I be allowed to say that the congestion of business for next week is no responsibility of ours, and that we would sit on Friday if the Government and the House thought it wise to do so? There would be no opposition from us to sitting either on Friday or Saturday. I want to make it quite clear that on Monday we shall be taking the Ministry of Labour Vote for practically the whole day, and on Tuesday the Irish Free State Vote practically all day, after the Austrian Loan Resolution, to which I understand there is no opposition. We want to secure a full discussion 529 on the Ministry of Labour Vote and on the Irish Free State Vote. As for the others, I suppose we shall have to do our best. I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any arrangements are to be made for calling the House together earlier than the 7th February, if necessary?
Mr. LLOYD GEORGEBefore the right hon. Gentleman replies, may I ask him whether, in the Debate on Monday, it will be possible to review the whole position of unemployment
§ Mr. BALDWINI am afraid I could riot answer that question definitely, for I regret to say I have not looked at the Estimate; but, on a large Estimate, such as this is, the Debate is generally allowed to run very wide, and we certainly have no desire to restrict it. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition for his kind offer of assistance, but I trust it will not be required.
§ Mr. MAXTONWas it necessary to pack this very heavy programme of business into the last week before Christmas? The Supplementary Estimates are not mere Supplementary Estimates in the ordinary sense of the term, but are evidence of the failure of governmental policy in two important aspects, namely, their failure to deal with unemployment, and their failure to deal intelligently with the Irish situation. Speaking for myself and my hon. Friend, our point of view remains our point of view, and I can assure the House that we have not assented in any way to this arrangement of business, and that, with all the power that we have, we shall endeavour to secure that both the unemployment question and the Irish Free State question shall receive full and adequate discussion.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThe right hon. Gentleman proposes to take the discussion on the Irish Free State on Report and the Debate on unemployment in Committee. He is not, as he knows, the guardian of what discussion takes place. That is in the hands of Mr. Speaker. The traditional custom is that in Committee a fairly wide discussion takes place, but on the Report stage Mr. Speaker's Ruling has constantly been that it differs from the Committee stage, and on Report discussion has been very much more limited than in Committee, where it 530 has generally been given a much wider scope. I want to ask what guarantee the House has that, if they allow the discussion on the Irish Free State Vote to take place on Report, there will be the same wide Debate as if it were taken in Committee.
§ Mr. BALDWINI have had no notice of that question. My understanding of the practice of the House is what the hon. Members says would be true about a Bill, but I have never myself seen a curtailed discussion on the Report stage of an Estimate. I think the hon. Member will find that his difficulty is quite trivial.
§ Mr. MAXTONI want to ask if there was any real urgency for these Supplementary Estimates being taken in the last week before the Christmas Recess and if they could not quite easily be postponed until our resumption after Christmas?
§ Mr. BALDWINI can assure the hon. Member that no one would be more anxious to postpone them than I, but, it is essential to get the money.
Commander LOCKER-LAMPSONShall we have an opportunity of discussing the Soviet attitude to this country?
§ Mr. BALDWINThe Adjournment is the only opportunity that at this moment occurs to me.
§ Colonel GRETTONWill my right hon. Friend consider whether by general consent it will be possible to take the Committee stage of the Irish Free State Vote on Tuesday so as to allow the same discussion that, always takes place on these occasions?
§ Sir A. M. SAMUELIn relation to the business of the Austrian Loan Guarantee Resolution, would it be possible for us to have a White Paper explaining the purpose in view? The Leader of the Opposition has said that there will be no opposition, but some of us would like to know how the money is to be dealt with in view of the fact that so much public money has been lost.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI was assured through the usual channels that there would be no opposition to the Austrian Vote. If there is going to be a long discussion on that question, I think we shall 531 have to press that the House sits on Friday, because to us the two important discussions are the Irish Free State and unemployment. They are the two discussions for which we want ample time. If this time-table is upset, we must press very strongly indeed that we sit on Friday. If it can be arranged that the Committee stage of the Irish Free State Vote is taken on Tuesday, we shall be very glad to fall in with that proposition, because we want the fullest discussion possible.
§ Sir A. M. SAMUELI do not know why the right hon. Gentleman corrects me or rebukes me. All I said was that we required to know what this is about, so that we may be informed where the money is going.
§ Mr. BALDWINI can assure the Leader of the Opposition that the point that has been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Sir A. M. Samuel) has been before our minds. Obviously, there must be some criticism and some explanation to be offered in regard to the Austrian loan, but we have no reason to expect that there will be any concerted opposition or discussion which will last long. I expect there will be practically two days to be devoted to the other subjects. With regard to the other point, we must have the Committee stage of the Ways and Means Resolution on Monday night so as to get the Consolidated Fund Bill.
§ Sir AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI do not know whether I might appeal to you, Sir, to give some assistance to the House, if you could, in regard to the Irish discussion. As I understand, the previous Rulings of the Chair, to which reference has been made by the hon. Member opposite, referred to discussions on Report after discussion had taken place in Committee. Would there be a similar restriction of a discussion on the Report stage where by general consent the discussion has been postponed from Committee to Report stage and was, therefore, a discussion de novo and not a mere repetition of arguments already used in debate.
§ Mr. SPEAKERAny curtailment of Debate on the Report stage has generally been because there has been a full dis- 532 cussion in Committee. I have never known, as far as I can recollect, any curtailment of Debate when a question was dealt with on Report, the Committee stage having been merely formal.
§ Mr. MAXTONAssuming that the Committee stage is not formal and that a Debate takes place on the contents of the Estimate, would that in your view preclude a wider discussion on the Report stage?
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt is almost impossible to give a general Ruling on that question, because I cannot foresee what kind of discussion will take place in Committee. It has always been understood that, if a question has been pretty fully debated in Committee, there should not be a repetition on Report, but, when there has been no discussion and the Vote has been put and carried without discussion in Committee, just as full discussion is allowed on Report as in Committee.
§ Mr. LAMBERTMay I ask whether we can he given some more information about the Austrian loan before the Supplementary Estimate is discussed? May we have a little more information than is contained in this White Paper?
§ Mr. BALDWINMy right hon. Friend informs me that any further information will be given at the time. He has given what he can in the White Paper.
§ Mr. BUCHANANMay I point out that in Committee a Member can speak more than once if necessary, and that on Report the right of cross-examination of a Minister is gone; consequently, on an important matter such as the Irish Free State Vote, the liberty, which has been constantly safeguarded, of cross-examination of the Minister in this House, will be broken if we allow the Committee stage to go by the board?
§ Mr. BALDWINI have such confidence in the ability of my right hon. Friend and those acting with him that I do not think they will have any difficulty on the Report stage in bringing forward what they desire to raise.
§
Motion made, and Question put,
That the Proceedings on the Housing (Financial Provisions) Bill have precedence this day of the Business of Supply."—[Mr. Baldwin.]
§ The House divided>: Ayes, 241; Noes, 33.
535| Division No. 26.] | AYES. | [4.1 p.m. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. | Goodman, Colonel Albert W. | Nunn, William |
| Albery, Irving James | Grattan-Doyle, Sir Nicholas | Oman, Sir Charles William C. |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. | Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John | Palmer, Francis Noel |
| Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro'. W.) | Patrick, Colin M. |
| Aske, Sir Robert William | Gunston, Captain D, W. | Pearson, William G. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Guy, J, C. Morrison | peat, Charles U. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Percy, Lord Eustace |
| Balniel, Lord | Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Perkins, Walter R. D. |
| Belt, Sir Alfred L. | Hamilton, Sir R. W. (Orkney & Zetl'nd) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Benn, Sir Arthur Shirley | Hanley, Dennis A. | Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'pt'n, Bilston) |
| Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel | Harris, Sir Percy | Pickering, Ernest H. |
| Bernays, Robert | Hartland, George A. | Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada |
| Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Harvey Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. |
| Blindell, James | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Procter, Major Henry Adam |
| Boulton, W. W. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Pybus, Percy John |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Hepworth, Joseph | Ralkes, Henry V. A. M. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. | Holdsworth, Herbert | Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) |
| Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) | Hope, Capt. Hon. A. O. J. (Aston) | Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) |
| Briant, Frank | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Islet) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Hornby, Frank | Ramsden, E. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Horobin, Ian M. | Ray, Sir William |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks., Newb'y) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Rea, Walter Russell |
| Buchan, John | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Reid, David D. (County Down) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, p. G. T. | Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) | Reid, James S. C. (Stirling) |
| Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie | Hunter, Capt. M. J. (Brigg) | Reid, William Allan (Derby) |
| Butler, Richard Austen | Hurd, Sir Percy | Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. |
| Cadogan, Hon. Edward | Hurst, Sir Gerald B. | Rhys. Hon. Charles Arthur U. |
| Calne, G. R. Hall- | Hutchison, W. D. (Essex, Roml'd) | Ropner, Colonel L, |
| Campbell, Edward Taswell (Bromley) | Iveagh, Countess of | Ross, Ronald D, |
| Caporn, Arthur Cecil | James, Wing-Corn. A. W. H. | Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge) |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Jamieson, Douglas | Rothschild, James A. de |
| Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) | Russell, Albert (Kirkcaldy) |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Chalmers, John Rutherford | Kerr. Hamilton W. | Russell, Hamer Field (Sheffield, B'tslde) |
| Chamberlain, Rt.Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W) | Kimball, Lawrence | Salmon, Major Isidore |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) | Kirkpatrick, William M. | Samuel, Sir Arthur Michael (F'nham) |
| Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) | Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. | Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart |
| Chorlton, Alan Ernest Leofric | Knight, Holford | Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard |
| Christie, James Archibald | Knox, Sir Alfred | Scone, Lord |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston Spencer | Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George | Sinclair, Maj. Rt. Hn. Sir A. (C'thness) |
| Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D. | Law. Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) | Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D. |
| Colman, N. C. O. | Leckie. J. A. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Conant, R. J. E. | Lees-Jones, John | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Cook, Thomas A. | Levy, Thomas | Smithers, Waldron |
| Cooke, Douglas | Lloyd, Geoffrey | Somervell, Donald Bradley |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Locker-Lampion, Rt. Hn. G. (Wd. Gr'n) | Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor) |
| Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry | Locker-Lampson, Com. O. (H'ndsw'th) | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lockwood, Capt. J. H. (Shipley) | Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E. |
| Crooke, J. Smedley | Lyons, Abraham Montagu | Southby, Commander Archibald R. J. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Galnsb'ro) | Mabane, William | Spears, Brigadier-General Edward L. |
| Cross, R. H. | MacAndrew. Lt.-Col C. G. (Partick) | Spencer, Captain Richard A. |
| Crossley, A. C. | MacAndrcw, Capt. J. O. (Ayr) | Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde) |
| Curry, A. C. | McEwen, Captain J. H. F. | Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Dalkeith, Earl of | McKeag, William | Strauss, Edward A. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | McKie, John Hamilton | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Davison, Sir William Henry | McLean, Major Alan | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Murray F. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) | Tate, Mavis Constance |
| Donner, P. W. | Macpherson, Rt. Hon. James I. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Doran. Edward | Magnay, Thomas | Titchfield, Major the Marquess of |
| Duckworth, George A. V. | Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest | Todd, A. L. S. (Kingswinford) |
| Duggan, Hubert John | Mander, Geoffrey le M. | Touche, Gordon Cosmo |
| Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.) | Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. | Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement |
| Dunglass, Lord | Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. | Wallace, John (Dunfermline) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Marsden, Commander Arthur | Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Emmott, Charles E. G. C. | Martin. Thomas B. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir John S. |
| Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) | Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John | Warrender, Sir Victor A. G. |
| Erskine-Bolst, Capt. C. C. (Blackpool) | Mills, Sir Frederick (Leyton, E.) | Whiteside, Borras Noel H. |
| Essenhigh, Reginald Clare | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Evans, David Owen (Cardigan) | Molson, A. Hugh Elsdale | Williams, Herbert G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Evans, R. T. (Carmarthen) | Mousell, Rt. Hon. Sir B. Eyres | Wills, Wilfrid D |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Morris, John Patrick (Salford, N.) | Wilson, Clyde T. (West Toxteth) |
| Falle Sir Bertram G. | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh) | Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst | Moss. Captain H. J. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut-Colonel George |
| Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) | Muirhead. Major A. J | Womersley, Walter James |
| Fox, Sir Gifford | Munro, Patrick | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks) |
| Fremantle, Sir Francis | Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. | |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Nicholson, Godfrey (Morpeth) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Nicholson, Rt. Hn. W. G. (Petersf'ld) | Sir Frederick Thomson and Sir |
| Glossop, C. W. H. | Normand, Wilfrid Guild | George Penny. |
| Goldle, Noel B. | North, Captain Edward T. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, South) | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. Arthur | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Grenfell, David Rees (Glamorgan) | Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) |
| Banfield, John William | Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Maxton, James |
| Batey, Joseph | Groves, Thomas E. | Milner, Major James |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) | Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Parkinson, John Allen |
| Buchanan, George | Hicks, Ernest George | Thorne, William James |
| Cape, Thomas | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Williams, Edward John (Ogmore) |
| Cove, William G. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Lawson, John James | Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley) |
| Daggar, George | Leonard, William | |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Logan, David Gilbert | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Edwards, Charles | Lunn, William | Mr. D. Graham and Mr. John. |