HC Deb 13 December 1932 vol 273 cc306-13
Mr. HICKS

I beg to move, in page 140, to leave out line 11

9.16 p.m.

I am not proposing to argue this Amendment at any very great length, because its purpose appears to us to be obvious. We are unable to see why the Council of the City of Westminster should be entitled' to special representation. I believe that the original intention was for six members to be appointed from the Metropolitan boroughs, but that was increased to seven, and that the Council of the City of Westminster was given special status. The problem of traffic is one that concerns the whole of London, and we are of the opinion that if the City of Westminster have any special qualifications they would be better able to convince the other Metropolitan councils of their importance if they acted in conjunction with them in whatever way they might be grouped. We are asking the Minister to accept our Amendment that the Council of the City of Westminster should not have special representation, and should not be singled out from the other Metropolitan boroughs. The City of Westminster ought to take its chance with the other Metropolitan boroughs, so far as representation upon the London Traffic Advisory Committee is concerned.

9.18 p.m.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

The hon. Member for East Woolwich (Mr. Hicks) proposes to deprive the City of Westminster of the privileged position which it occupies in the Schedule. The City of Westminster has a status entirely unique, and has very peculiar responsibilities in connection with traffic. The spot in London at which the largest amount of road traffic takes place, day in and day out, is Hyde Park Corner, which is in the City of Westminster. When you reflect, further, that the City of Westminster includes such important centres of traffic as Trafalgar Square, the Strand, Piccadilly Circus—which is a place of which we have all heard—and part of Oxford Street, hon. Members will say that there is probably no other place in the London area which can compare in responsibilities or position with Westminster. Westminster is included in the Traffic Advisory Committee by having one representative. Westminster will not have any particular sway in the councils of the Advisory Committee unless it can convince other members of the committee to act with it. It is only one out of 40, and we ought not to grudge the City of Westminster the distinction of being named in this Bill. Moreover, I hope that it is not improper to suggest to the Committee that, as we conduct our deliberations in Westminster, we should like our City to be represented in this Bill.

Amendment negatived.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

I beg to move, in page 141, to leave out lines 3 to 12, and to insert instead thereof the words: One—By the Minister after consultation with such bodies representative of these interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of persons (other than the board and the Amalgamated Railway Companies) providing or using mechanically-propelled road vehicles within the London Traffic Area. One—By the Minister, after consultation with such bodies representative of these interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of persons (other than the board and the Amalgamated Railway Companies) providing or using horse-drawn road vehicles within the London Traffic Area.

One—By the Minister, after consultation with such bodies representative of these interests as he may think fit, to represent the interests of the taxi-cab industry within the London Traffic Area."

9.20 p.m.

This Amendment, which is designed to meet the point made in an Amendment which appears upon the Order Paper in the name of some of my hon. Friends, provides additional representation on the Advisory Committee for people who use the roads. When the Bill left the Select Committee, there was a proposal that there should be two representatives of people who use the roads, and one of the parties was to be chosen as a representative of the drivers of taxicabs. It was then thought, upon reflection, that that was giving representation to a rather limited number of persons, and that it would not give any representation to the numerous class of persons who are interested as owners of taxicabs. The plan that we have adopted, and which I hope will meet the objection of my hon. Friends' Amendment, is to increase the number of representatives whom. I have mentioned from two to three, and then slightly to alter the nature of the representation. The first of the three will represent people, other than the board of a railway company, who provide or use mechanically-propelled road vehicles within the London traffic area. The Minister has to choose somebody to sit in the interests of that group of persons.

The next is that the Minister has to choose somebody to represent the interests of persons using horse-drawn road vehicles. Some people may say, "Why horse-drawn road vehicles? "We should all be very sorry if the horse-drawn vehicle should disappear entirely. I believe that a certain number of people have found that it is more economical to employ the horse-drawn vehicle than one which is mechanically propelled. As long as there is a considerable body of such persons, they certainly ought not to be shouldered out of their rights on the road, to which they may almost be said to have a prescriptive right. No one will begrudge the horse-drawn vehicle its place, and long may it remain there. The last of the three is to be a representative of the taxicab industry. The Minister has to choose somebody, alter consultation with all the persons engaged, and I hope that the person will be someone truly representative of those who are interested in the taxicab industry as drivers and not only as owners.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

9.24 p.m.

Mr. HICKS

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 13, to leave out the words "taxicab industry," and to insert instead thereof the words "drivers of taxicabs."

This manuscript Amendment would reinstate some of the words which have been taken out of the Bill. The Attorney-General has given us the reasons why the alteration is to take place, but we are not convinced that drivers of taxicabs would not be better upon the Advisory Committee than those persons whom the Minister proposes to cover the interests of the taxicab industry. We would like the Minister to reinstate those words, in order that the men who are engaged in driving the taxicabs through our congested city may confer upon the Advisory Committee the advantage of their experience. If the Schedule is left as it is proposed to be altered by the Minister, namely, to include a representa- tive of the taxicab industry, that representative may be any person with money invested in taxicabs, whether that person knows anything about traffic or not. We think that our Amendment is reasonable, and that it will give the Advisory Committee the benefit of the very best available advice. If the Amendment which the Minister has moved were only a drafting Amendment we could understand it, but the Minister is limiting himself by not taking advantage of the experience that is available. I am not proposing to talk at any length on the matter because it is self-evident. We are not asking that the taxi-drivers should be represented, but that the interests of the taxi-drivers should be provided for in the Bill. We hope the Minister will reinsert the words which he has moved to leave out, so that the interests of the drivers of taxicabs may have representation.

9.26 p.m.

Mr. COLMAN

I rise to support the Amendment, because I cannot help feeling that if the Amendment is adopted it will go a very long way towards removing what some of my hon. Friends and myself have regarded as not only an unfortunate, but a rather serious, omission in the Bill as it was drafted. There is the inclusion on the London Traffic and Home Counties Advisory Committee of a representative of the interests of the providers and users of horse-drawn traffic.

The CHAIRMAN

At this moment we are on the proposed Amendment to the Amendment.

Mr. COLMAN

I am sorry.

9.27 p.m.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

My feeling would be to accept the hon. Member's suggestion, but, after reflection and a little inquiry, I think it is better that we should not put in the words "taxi drivers," for this reason, that if you do you may probably find drivers of other vehicles who are in larger number's than the drivers of taxi-cabs. There are, for example, the drivers of lorries that are so numerous in our London streets. The Committee will observe that on the Advisory Committee there are no fewer than five representatives of what is called Labour. It says: representative of those interests as he may think fit to represent the interest of labour engaged in the transport industry within the London Traffic area. The driver of a taxi-cab is either labour engaged in the transport industry or he may be the owner of a taxi-cab. If he is the owner he will obviously be represented by the third of the three persons named in my Amendment as representing the interests of the taxi-cab industry. Having regard to the fact that the five representatives of labour will include one representative of the taxi drivers, I think it is better to leave the Amendment as I have proposed it.

Amendment to proposed Amendment, negatived.

Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."

9.30 p.m.

Mr. COLMAN

I desire to support the Amendment on the Order Paper as it appears in the name of the Minister. It so happens that some time ago some of my hon. Friends and myself put down an Amendment to give effect to a somewhat similar principle, the principle of including a representative on the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee for the special purpose of representing the interests of the providers and users of horse-drawn traffic. It now appears from this Amendment, which we see on the Order Paper for the first time to-day, that the Minister is seeking to give effect to this sentiment. For this reason, I desire to support him and at a later stage to withdraw my Amendment. Our original Amendment was put down at the instigation and request of the National Horse Association of Great Britain which is the only organisation in this country which may claim fully to represent every known breed of horses. I can assure the Committee, speaking on behalf of that organisation, that they attach the very greatest importance to this particular Amendment and I am glad to have this opportunity of publicly thanking the Minister for the very considerate way he has met us in regard to this important matter.

We have already heard this afternoon that provision has been made for the special representation of the taxi-cab industry. I am all in favour of that, but it does seem logical that we should also give representation to those who are interested in horse-drawn vehicles, because we have to remember that there are in London to-day an enormous number of horse-drawn vehicles that are used by traders in connection with their business, because they find them by far the cheapest and best form of transport for their particular class of work. It is also alleged that from time to time the interest of motor traffic conflicts with the interest of horse-drawn vehicles, and for that reason I think it is manifest that it would be impossible for one representative to represent both interests. Even if he could do so, he certainly could not lay claim to being able to put forward the views of both interests in the way they would wish. For these reasons, I welcome the Amendment and desire to support it. I think it will be said by all those who are interested in horse-drawn traffic and in horse-breeding generally that they are very greatly indebted to the Minister for the fair and considerate way he has met the point put forward.

Amendment agreed to.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this, as amended, be the Tenth Schedule to the Bill."

9.33 p.m.

Mr. ATKINSON

May I ask who is the Secretary of State referred to in line 7 of page 140? The Minister is defined on page 114 as the Minister of Transport, and I should like to know to whom the "Secretary of State" refers.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

It will be the Secretary of State for Home Affairs. It has been customary so to describe the Secretary of State in Acts of Parliament and, as the hon. Member knows, "Secretary of State" meant at one time one person, and although we now have several Secretaries of State it is not uncommon to describe the Secretary of State for Home Affairs simply as "the Secretary of State."

9.34 p.m.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

The Schedule says that one Member will be appointed by the Secretary of State to represent the Metropolitan Police. This Bill has been extended very considerably, and we ought to make quite sure that there is sufficient representation of the police outside the Metropolitan district. I do not wish the Minister to pledge himself to change this, but I would ask him to consult with the Secretary of State or the Under-Secretary of State, and make quite certain that there is adequate police representation both inside and outside the Metropolitan area.

Eleventh Schedule (Consequential and minor Amendments to he made in the London Traffic Act, 1924) agreed to.