HC Deb 06 December 1932 vol 272 cc1567-72

10.31 p.m.

Mr. THORP

I beg to move, in page 84, line 3, to leave out the words (in this section referred to as existing benefit funds ')" and to insert instead thereof the words: (other than the Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund and the British Electrical Endowment Fund), which funds or schemes are in this section referred to as existing benefit funds.' The object of this Amendment is to preserve the vested interests of people who are members of the British Electrical Endowment Fund.

Mr. PYRUS

This Amendment and following Amendments in the name of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for North-West Camberwell (Mr. Cassels) are designed to make more precise the provisions already in Sub-section (6) with regard to the British Electrical Endowment Fund, some members of which will be transferred to the service of the board. The Amendments have been agreed with the persons concerned, who will continue their membership on the same conditions as though they remained in their previous employment. We accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. THORP

I beg to move, in page 84, line 5, to leave out the words "(in this section referred to as existing banks '," and to insert instead thereof the words (other than the British Electrical Provident Fund), which banks or institutions are in this section referred to as c existing banks.'

10.34 p.m.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Could we have some explanation of the Amendment? I do not see why we should have back bench Amendments forced on us. The Minister accepts this without any explanation. He simply says someone has agreed to it. It is only the excuse given for accepting the Amendment, and, surely, the Committee should have some information. What are the "existing banks"? It is monstrous the way the Committee have been treated.

The CHAIRMAN

As far as I can make out, the hon. Member is now asking for an explanation of the second Amendment which is practically in identical terms with the one which the Committee have just passed.

Mr. WILLIAMS

You say that it is practically identical, but I do not think that it is wholly identical.

The CHAIRMAN

The point is that I must rule that the principle has been settled on the Amendment which has been passed, and I cannot allow the hon. Member to pursue it.

Amendment agreed to.

10.36 p.m.

Further Amendments made: In page 84, line 8, leave out the words "or Part V," and insert instead thereof the words Part V or Part VI."—[Mr. Pybus.]

In page 85, line 41, leave out the words "or of the British Electrical Endowment Fund."

In line 44, leave out the words "or fund."

In page 86, line 9, leave out the words "or fund."

In line 11, at the end, insert the words: () Any person who, being an officer or servant of a transferred company, is transferred to and becomes an officer or servant of the Board and who, immediately before the appointed day was a member of the British Electrical Endowment Fund (in this sub-section referred to as the Endowment Fund ') shall (subject to the provisions of the trust deeds and rules for the time being applicable to the Endowment Fund) continue for the period during which lie remains an officer or servant of the hoard to be a member of the Endowment Fund; and while he so remains a member he shall be entitled to the same benefits, rights and privileges and subject to the same obligations, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice, as he would have been or might have become entitled to or subject to if the undertaking carried on by the company under which he held his office or employment had not been transferred to the board, or if the board had been a company within the meaning of the said trust deeds and rules, and the board shall, in respect of that person, have the same rights and be subject to the same obligations as the board would have been subject to under the provisions of the said trust deeds and rules if the board had been a company within the meaning of the said trust deeds and rules, and as from the appointed day, in construing the provisions of the said trust deeds and rules, the board in respect of that person shall be deemed to be, and always to have been, such a company. () Any person who, being an officer or servant of a transferred company, is transferred to and becomes an officer or servant of the board, and mho immediately before appointed day was a depositor in the British Electrical Provident Fund (in this sub-section referred to as the Provident Fund ') through the company under which he held his office or employment, and any person being the wife or child of an officer or servant so transferred and being immediately before the appointed day a depositor in the Provident Fund may, for the period during which such officer or servant remains an officer or servant of the board, remain a depositor through the board in the Provident Fund and shall be entitled to the same benefits, rights and privileges, and be subject to the same obligations, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice, as he or she would have been entitled or subject to, and the board shall in respect of that person have the same rights and be subject to the same obligations as the board would have been subject to under the provisions of the trust deeds and rules for the time being applicable to the Provident Fund if the board had been a company within the meaning of the said trust deeds and rules and as from the appointed day in construing the said trust deeds and rules the board shall in respect of that person be deemed to be, and always to have been, a company within the meaning of the said trust deeds and rules." —[Mr. Thorp.]

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Are all these words ruled by the same principle?

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member is too late.

Mr. PYBUS

I beg to move, in page 36, line 18, to leave out the word "may," and to insert instead thereof the words: (in this section referred to as a local authority's fund ') may so long as he remains an officer or servant of the beard. This Amendment is designed to meet the point raised by the London County Council that the right to retain membership of a local authority's fund shall not continue in the case of a transport officer or servant when he leaves the service of the Board. It is merely formal.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. PYBUS

I beg to move, in page 86, to leave out lines 30 to 32, and to insert instead thereof the words: () Where any person who continues to be a member of a local authority's fund ceases to be an Officer or servant of the board the provisions of any such enactment, scheme, rule, or regulation as aforesaid which would have been applicable upon his ceasing to be an officer or servant of the authority shall apply as if he had remained an officer or servant of the authority, and had ceased to be such an officer or servant at the time at which, and in circumstances similar to those in which he ceased to be an officer or servant of the board; () Where any officer or servant of the board continues after the appointed day to be a member of a local authority's fund. This is another Amendment designed to meet points raised by the London County Council concerning the transfer of certain of their employés to the board.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

I should like an explanation of this matter. The Patronage Secretary must know that it is the right of a Member of the Committee to ask for an explanation. I have been most reasonable and I do not see why we should be refused an explanation. I am sure that the Minister will be only too delighted to tell us what is the agreement with the London County Council.

10.41 p.m.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

It is not simply a question of an agreement with the London County Council. The hon. Member is entitled to ask for information, and he is so quick that I am sure he will readily take in a very brief explanation. There are certain funds in which these employés of the County Council are interested, and a number of provisions are necessary to meet all eventualities, providing in substance for their right to continue to have an interest in the fund, notwithstanding that they are transferred to the board. Certain consequential provisions are necessary, such as providing for a deficit when it is due to a member continuing as a, member of the fund. It is necessary that the board should make up the deficit. These are arrangements which are part of a plan satisfactory to the County Council for leaving these persons in the fund, notwithstanding their transfer.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

I thank the Attorney-General for his very courteous answer, and I assure him that I appreciate the very clear exposition that he has given.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 86, line 43, leave out from the word "fund" to the word "except," in line 8, page 87, and insert instead thereof the words: where a local authority becomes liable to pay and pays into a local authority's fund any sums, whether ascertained upon an actuarial valuation or otherwise, being sums which if their undertaking had not been transferred to the board would have been payable by them out of the revenues of the undertaking, the board shall on demand repay to the authority so much of the said sums as relates to officers or servants of the board who continue or at any time since the appointed day have continued to be members of the local authority's fund; () the board and the local authority may enter into agreements for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of the last two preceding sub-sections and. In line 15, leave out from beginning to the word "the," in line 19, and insert instead thereof the words: If upon an actuarial valuation of any local authority's fund a deficiency is found to exist the board shall (without prejudice to any other liability of the board under the preceding provisions of this Section) on demand make good to the authority for the credit of.

In line 32, leave out from the word "Board" to the end of line 39.

In line 40, leave out the words "Provided that no such scheme of the Board," and insert instead thereof the words, "but no such scheme."—[Mr. Pybus.]

10.44 p.m.

Mr. THORP

I beg to move, in page 88, line 9, to leave out the words, "with the approval of the Minister."

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Does the Minister agree to be left out I How did he come to be left out by a back bencher I hope the Minister will tell us. I do not want to accept, without explanati6n, an Amendment which turns the Minister aside.

Mr. THORP

In deference to the wishes of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) who so courteously referred to me as a back bencher, I may say that the object of this Amendment is that any member of the board who at the date of its coming into operation has any vested interest in the fund, in the way of either having been a subscriber for some time to the fund or having been a depositor in the fund, may be allowed, notwithstanding any objections that may be made, to remain a member of the fund. He may have for a very considerable time contributed to the fund for the benefit of himself or in certain circumstances for the benefit of his wife and family. The Amendment follows on a previous Amendment.

Mr. WILLIAMS

I must apologise to the hon. Member. When I described him as a back bencher I did not mean to hurt his feelings. Most of us in the House are in that position. I never intended it in any derogatory sense.

Amendment agreed to.