CLAUSE 65.—(Settlement of disputes as to pay and conditions of service.) (Hansard, 6 December 1932)

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
Before I call on the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) to move his Amendment, I should like to ask him one question. He wants to move an Amendment to insert the words, "other than the excepted employés." Would he be good enough to inform me how much of his later Amendments to Clauses 67 and 68 that covers? I am rather in a difficulty about this.

§ Sir W. RAY
The first Amendment standing in my name conveys very little, but perhaps I could say what I have to say in one short speech and deal with the whole of the Amendments standing in my name on pages 200 and 201 of the Order Paper.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
I think it would be for the general convenience both of the hon. Member for Richmond and the Committee if he explained his scheme on this Amendment.

§ Sir W. RAY
I beg to move, in page 73, line 14, after the word "applies," to insert the words "(other than the excepted employés)."
This first Amendment practically conveys nothing by itself but the consequential Amendments which I have down explain more what is in my mind. The proposals I am submitting are really on behalf of the administrative staff which will be taken over by this great combination. At the present moment the technical, administrative and clerical staffs in the service of the London County Council which will be taken over by this new body, are dealt with by a point committee representative of the authority and its members. Under the Bill as it stands, dealing with matters connected with the negotiating committee, the wages board and the committee for making and varying schemes, the only people on the employés' side are the trade unions, namely, the National Union of Railwaymen, the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen, and the Railway Clerks' Association. The ordinary employés of the county council belong to the organisations mentioned and to other organisations, but there are a large body of the administrative staff on the technical administrative and technical side who are not members of these trade unions, arid, consequently, they will have no representation on the bodies dealing with the interests of the men.
Unless something like the proposal which I am suggesting in a later Clause is adopted, it will mean that this type of employé, with whom we have worked harmoniously for some years on joint committees, will be compelled in his own interest to join one or other of the three trade unions concerned. I am not speaking from any prejudice against trade unions at all; we are negotiating with them week by week and month by month, but, so far as members of the staff are concerned, there is a desire that they should not be forced into joining the ranks of the trade unions. It is quite possible, as has been illustrated by the success of our joint committee of members and staffs, to get a successful 1549 organisation of the kind, arid it seems a pity, under the provisions of a Bill of this kind, that this cannot be continued. I am moving these Amendments simply in the interests of a body of men who can in no way be called competent to join the trade unions, and simply with the idea of making provision for negotiations between that type of man and those who will be in control of this great combination. If any success attends this Amendment, I will move the others formally.

§ Lieut. - Colonel HEADLAM
The Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) is not one which the Government can accept as it stands. It is quite clear that his proposals go much too far, and that such a joint committee would be unworkable in practice. The point of view which he has expressed has been fully considered in consultation with the Minister of Labour. That is the considered view of the Government. The Minister of Transport, however, is prepared to consider the matter further, in consultation with his colleague the Minister of Labour, to see whether some alternative Amendment can be proposed to meet the case. The Government are, however, impressed with the view that the machinery of Part VI of the Bill is expressed to apply to grades of staff who may not ordinarily be associated with machinery such as that of the Clause. The Government will, therefore, be disposed to view with favour a proposal to impose some salary limit such as that which operates under the Railways Act. I hope that my hon. Friend will be satisfied with the assurance that we are moving on those lines.

§ Sir GEORGE HUME
I want to press the Government for very serious consideration of this point. I speak with some knowledge of the position as chairman of the Joint Committee of members of the staff, and I know how that association has been working during the last few years. To attempt to force the staff, of a standing such as we have to deal with, into other channels, would be a very great mistake indeed. This Amendment may not be inspired, and I dare say the Government, after giving it consideration, will produce something better or 1550 more workable, but for something to be done is most necessary. It will be a real disaster if an organisation such as has been worked out should be torn to pieces and thrown on the scrap heap, and if all the employés who have been accustomed to work on these lines should be forced into trade unions, to which they simply would not go willingly and in which they would have no voice at all. The result would be bad not only for them but for the organisation itself.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
These Amendments have been put on the Paper by hon. Members who are very well instructed and have full knowledge of these people and their position. Would it not be better if the Government accepted the Amendments now and considered any improvements that may be necessary before the Report stage?

§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
I think it is better that we should have an opportunity of considering the matter further. I can give my hon. Friends, who are interested on behalf of the staff concerned, an assurance that these men certainly shall be given the rights which the Committee intend shall be preserved. The best way of doing that, with due regard to their welfare and the peace of the undertakings, is a matter for consideration, but I have no hesitation at all in saying that the Government recognise that some proper provision must be made. We prefer to do it by further negotiation and consideration rather than by acceptance of these Amendments at the moment.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
I quite understand the Attorney-General's point of view. He speaks of negotiation and so on. I take it that those negotiations will be with, amongst others, the trade unions with whom this bargain was made—a bargain which is incorporated in this Clause, just as a bargain was made with other people who appeared before the Joint Committee. There were arrangements made with regard to certain sections. This arrangement was agreed between the trades unions and the Minister, who incorporated what is the procedure of the Railways Act, which has worked for so many years. I understand that in any question of altering the Clause the trade unions will be taken into consideration.

§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
It is because of the delicacy of the position that I say further consideration must be given to it. There is no desire to interfere with arrangements for keeping peace within the industry, arrangements which have worked well in the past; but they must apply to everyone and not to one separate body of persons.

§ Sir S. CRIPPS
Can we have an assurance?

§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
Certainly the organisations in question will be asked to concur in the arrangements that are made. Negotiations with everyone affected will be conducted.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
Will this be fixed by the Report stage?

§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL
Certainly.

§ Sir W. RAY
In view of the extremely conciliatory statement of the Attorney-General I feel that there is nothing for me to do but to withdraw all my Amendments in the hope that we will get something satisfactory before the Report stage.