§ 8.29 p.m.
§ Sir WILLIAM RAYI beg to move, in page 60, line 24, to leave out the words "of their proceedings under this Act during the preceding year," and to insert instead thereof the words:
dealing generally with the operations of the board during the preceding year (including any action taken under Section thirty-one of this Act) and containing such detailed information with regard to the proceedings and policy of the board as may properly be given without detriment to the interests of the undertaking of the board or of any of the amalgamated railway companies.This Amendment simply makes the return a little more full and a little more useful. As this is a matter in which the public generally are interested, we think that the suggestions made in my Amendment are such as should be provided for the public.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 60, line 29, leave out from the word "Minister," to the end of the Sub-section, and insert instead thereof the words:
such financial and statistical returns as may be agreed between the Minister and the board or, in default of agreement, as may be determined by the rates tribunal." —[Mr. Pybus.]
§ Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGANI beg to move, in page 60, line 32, at the end, to add the words:
Provided that either House of Parliament may at any time by resolution request the Minister to lay before Parliament a report by the board of their findings in relation to any matter.8.30 p.m.This is an Amendment to enlarge the powers of Parliament to require information from the Minister in relation to the proceedings of the Transport Board. The particular kind of case which I have in 1526 mind is one in which the Board may be involved in large expenditure, resulting in a burden upon the undertaking beyond its capacity to bear. The recent discussion on the finance of the undertaking lends point to the importance of this proviso. The board might be committed to that scheme of expenditure in circumstances which no longer held good, and since 12 months might be too long to continue the progress of that scheme, an earlier opportunity should be given to enable them to change their policy until circumstances were more favourable. If the Minister would consider this Amendment favourably, I should be very glad. We want the fullest possible opportunity of ascertaining from the Minister as to the proceedings of the board in regard to such a matter as I have detailed, or in regard to any other matter such as may easily arise with such a large and important undertaking. I hope that the Minister may see his way to accept the Amendment.
§ 8.31 p.m.
§ Mr. PYBUSIn accepting the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Richmond (Sir W. Ray) before, I consider that we made adequate provision for the purpose of keeping Parliament informed as to the proceedings of the board arid the general operation of the scheme. The hon. Gentleman has overlooked the point that it will always be open to Members of Parliament to address questions to the Minister relating to London transport. The Amendment is apparently designed to put upon the Minister an obligation to lay before Parliament a report by the board, and their findings in relation to any matter so required by a Resolution of either House. It is unusual in character, and it- appears to be unnecessary. If either House passes such a Resolution, as of course it is entitled to do, the Minister will do his best to give effect to it.
§ 8.32 p.m.
§ Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGANI did not hear all that the Minister said, but, if his sole objection to the Amendment is that the terms of it are rather too wide, let me say that I do not insist upon the exact wording, as long as Parliament will have the amplest opportunity of requiring information from this great undertaking. If the Minister says that the previous Amendment gives those powers, all I can say is that it does not seem to me that 1527 the powers afforded there are quite as wide as those for which I ask. The previous Amendment says:
such financial and statistical returns as may be agreed between the Minister and the board or, in default of agreement, as may be determined by the rates tribunal.I do not want that. I want such information and statistical returns as may appropriately he required by Members of this House, or of the other House of Parliament. There seems nothing unreasonable in asking for that. The Minister says that Members may put a question on the Paper and secure information from the Minister, but the information given in reply to a question is rather curtailed, and is necessarily not so full as might be obtained by a Parliamentary demand for a report. If it is only the matter of the terms of the Amendment that is between the Minister and myself, perhaps he will consider a method of meeting my wishes, leaving the matter of the actual wording to be settled on some future occasion. His answer is that the previous Amendment provides what I ask, but I do not think that it does.
§ Mr. PYBUSI must say at once, in view of the Amendment that I have just accepted, and of the statement that I have made, that it is always open to hon. Members to inquire in the House about any question arising out of London transport. I cannot go any further.
§ 8.35 p.m.
§ Mr. T. WILLIAMSThe hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten one very important fact. It is true that he has accepted a previous Amendment undertaking, after agreement with the board, to lay certain figures, but there will be no opportunity for a general examination of any problem that may occur during any year at a time when, perhaps, extensions are under consideration. Under the present Amendment, either this House or the other House must pass a resolution before the Minister will be called upon to lay papers. That seems to me to be an ample safeguard, and, in view of the size of the undertaking, its general significance, and the fact that it is the first of its kind in the country and probably will be the model upon 1528 which many future schemes will be based, I think that the Minister might very well, even now, reconsider his decision, in view of the fact that no information could be insisted upon unless and until Parliament had discussed the question and passed a Resolution in favour of inviting the Minister to lay papers.
§ Amendment negatived.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
§ 8.37 p.m.
§ Sir K. VAUGHAN-MORGANIt is not unnatural that one should express one's regret that the Minister has not seen his way to accede to the appeal which has been made from both sides of the Committee that he should reconsider his rather arbitrary decision in regard to the Amendment that I moved just now. I take this opportunity of once again pleading with him between now and Report to bring to bear upon this question an open mind, and to see whether there is not something substantial in the case that I have put, forward, and whether he cannot meet us in some small way. As has been pointed out by the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), there is no chance of a privilege of this kind being abused, and yet it affords a proper opportunity for Parliament to be adequately informed on any matter falling within the jurisdiction of this very important undertaking, which, as the Minister has been reminded, is without precedent, is the first of its kind, and is only too likely to be followed by many others.