HC Deb 06 December 1932 vol 272 cc1493-7

6.40 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM

I beg to move, in page 46, line 1, to leave out the words "make representations to the Minister," and to insert instead thereof the words "at any time apply to the rates tribunal."

This is a drafting Amendment.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Why is it that in this Clause it is apparently a local authority who may make representations to the rates tribunal, whereas in Clause 34 it is the Minister who is to have certain powers? Can the Parliamentary Secretary say where the Minister stops and where local authorities come in? In Clause 34 the Minister is still kept in, whereas in this Clause the Government propose to eliminate him. Why?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

In Subsection (3) of Clause 34 the Minister has merely to give a certificate that circumstances have changed in order to enable some action to be taken. In the Clause we have now reached, the Railway Rates Tribunal has to decide the alteration, in place of the Minister. In Clause 34 the Minister does nothing except certify a change of circumstances to enable a reconsideration of certain matters. There is a distinction. It would be difficult for the Railway Rates Tribunal to act.

6.48 p.m.

Sir S. CRIPPS

May I put a point to the Attorney-General in regard to the Railway Rates Tribunal? Under the Railways Act, 1921, the question of proper facilities is one for the Railway and Canal Commission. The Clause deals with the question of the withdrawal or not of any facility provided in connection with the suburban passenger services. Will it not be rather awkward for the Railway Rates Tribunal to deal with these matters as regards the suburban passenger services while the same facilities, a little further on, will be under the jurisdiction of the Railway and Canal Commission? It may mean that a train which runs out of one suburban area into another may be dealt with by the Railway Rates Tribunal and the Railway and Canal Commission. Would it not be much better to bring facilities within the ambit of the Railway Rates Tribunal? It is a question as to whether this duplication is any longer necessary. Would it not be better for one of them to have sole control of facilities?

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

I am much obliged to the hon. and learned Member for calling attention to the point. As far as the Railway and Canal Commission is concerned, it may be necessary—I cannot say more—to make an alteration to withdraw the matter from their jurisdiction, but as the hon. and learned Member has called attention to some in convenience which may result if we have two tribunals dealing with the same question I will look into it.

Amendment agreed to.

6.50 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM

I beg to move, in page 46, line 10, to leave out Sub-section (2).

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

After what the Attorney-General has just said, would it not be much better to leave in this Sub-section, as this would be the place where, on Report, any alteration could be made? I do not know the legal and technical side of the question, but I think it would be much better to leave it in. We have had a most valuable suggestion from the hon. and learned Member for Bristol, East (Sir S. Cripps) who has pointed out the queer position which may result, and I think it would be much better to leave Sub-section (2) in because we can then make the necessary Amendment on Report.

6.51 p.m.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

I have not been able to check it but. I am told that this Sub-section is being put in in another part of the Bill.

Mr. WILLIAMS

Where? We must know where.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

In the proposed new Clause dealing with the transfer of the powers of the Railway and Canal Commission.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 46, leave out the words from the beginning of line 16 to the word "may," in line 18, and insert instead thereof the words: Where any such application is made, the rates tribunal.

In line 18, leave out the words "he thinks," and insert instead thereof the words "they think."

In line 21, leave out the words "the services in question," and insert instead thereof the words: such services subject to such conditions (including the provision of alternative facilities) as they may prescribe.

In line 24, leave out the ward "Minister," and insert instead thereof the words "rates tribunal."

In line 27, after the second word "or," insert the word "which."

In line 28, leave out the word "or," and insert instead thereof the words: by any of those companies save with the consent of the company concerned, or which would necessitate."—[Lieut.-Colonel Head-lam.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

6.54 p.m.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

May I be allowed now to put a point to the Attorney General? He said that a, person taking a ticket might be under one administration during one period of the journey and under another administration at another period of the journey. It is the difficulty raised by the hon. and learned Member for Bristol, East (Sir S. Cripps) as I understood him—

The CHAIRMAN (Sir Dennis Herbert)

I think the hon. Member far Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) must have misunderstood the hon. and learned Member for Bristol, East (Sir S. Cripps). I do not find anything about two ticket rates in this Clause.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

It is a question that a traveller is partly under one system of administration and partly under another. However, I will not take it any further. I should like to know why only a local authority may make representations. I take the view that other people besides local authorities should have the power to make representations, and I assume that there are some adequate means by which private individuals may be able to make representations.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL

If the hon. Member will turn to one of the new Clauses, he will find a proposal to give persons concerned the right to make representations.

Mr. C. WILLIAMS

Is that in the proposed new Clause of the Government or in the new Clause standing in the name of the hon. Member for Fulham, East (Sir K. Vaughan-Morgan)? If the Government are going to accept that Amendment, it will be very helpful.

Clause 36 (Transport fund), ordered to stand part of the Bill.