CLAUSE 30.—(Representations by local authorities as to withdrawal, reduction of, or need for, services provided or to be provided by the board.) (Hansard, 6 December 1932)

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
I beg to move, in page 40, line 17, to leave out the words "make representations to the Minister," and to insert instead thereof the words" at any time apply to the rates tribunal."
The purpose of this Amendment and subsequent Amendments to the Clause is to provide that the jurisdiction over facilities provided by the board which was conferred upon the Minister shall be left in the hands of the Railway Rates Tribunal. This gives effect to what the Minister foreshadowed in his White Paper which was issued in July. The view was then expressed that the Clause in its present form conferred excessive powers upon the Minister, and also that the jurisdiction over fares and other facilities should be vested in the same authority, since these matters are inextricably woven together. As the result of the Amendment, we propose that the jurisdiction over all such matters shall reside in the Railway Rates Tribunal. I think that in this way we have got over one of the main difficulties found in the Bill when it was read a Second time.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
I wish to ask the Minister two questions on the Clause. The local authority may 6.20 p.m. make representation to the Minister. If a large number of private persons are affected and they wish to make representation, to whom will they be able to make representation?

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
Not to the Railway Rates Tribunal.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
That is the first point. If the ordinary passenger is aggrieved by the decision he should be given the opportunity of going to some court of appeal. Is there any court of appeal? Can he go beyond this body if he feels aggrieved in any way? This is an important matter. I am not concerned so much with local authorities as they can look after themselves. I am anxious about private individuals, and we ought to know to whom they can appeal, if at all, and what is the right way of doing it.

§ Mr. H. WILLIAMS
I remember well 20 years ago that as members of a committee of the local ratepayers' association we used to devote nearly half our time to making proper and reasonable representations to the Underground railway companies with regard to facilities of all kinds, and with very successful results. We were always received with the utmost courtesy. It seems to me that we are making this a little too official. We are only going to give powers of representation to local authorities. It would be worth while for the Minister to consider between now and the Report stage whether he would not confer upon any organised responsible body of persons in any part of the London transport area, the right to make representations to the tribunal and have a status before it. I 1485 am not certain of the rights in respect of main line traffic, but my impression is that at the moment an individual trader in some circumstances has access to the Railway Rates Tribunal. The only experience I have had of the Railway Rates Tribunal was in a representative capacity. on behalf of a trade with which I was then connected. My recollection is that certain rights exist. We ought not to leave the matter only to local authorities. There may be conflicts of opinion, and it may be a matter which only concerns a particular part of a large area and the local authority may not think it of sufficient importance to take up the matter. Yet there may be some responsible body of local citizens in a position to put forward the case, and they ought to be given a status before the tribunal.

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
I am glad to be able to inform my two hon. Friends that anybody can apply direct or request the London Traffic Advisory Committee to take up the matter. In any case, I think that any reasonable number of people could perfectly well bring influence to bear upon their local authorities. I am sure that that is the best way in which to bring it to the attention of the board.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
What is the position with regard to appeals from decisions of the board?

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
The hon. Member means from the Railway Rates Tribunal. There is only an appeal on matters of law, and I do not see how that can be altered. How could you suggest that there could be an appeal?

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
If there is a right of appeal in matters of law, that is all I require. As long as it is a certainty—I am not absolutely sure—I shall be satisfied.

§ Lieut.-Colonel HEADLAM
At the present time I doubt whether there is any appeal on matters of law. I wish to be frank in my answer. I think that my hon. Friend may rest satisfied that the Railway Rates Tribunal is a body which gives every satisfaction, and I do not think that he need worry on the subject.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
If there is not a right of appeal, the Minister apparently 1486 wishes it to be there. May we have an assurance that it will be put in on the Report stage?

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL (Sir Boyd Merriman)
There seems to be a misapprehension about this matter. I do not think there is a right of appeal, which is specially excluded by the Seventh Schedule. But I am afraid that I cannot give an undertaking that the matter will be reconsidered.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
May we have some means of knowing I May we have an assurance that in some way or other the House may be given definite information on the Report stage? It will be very difficult for a private Member to raise the question again. I realise that the matter is complicated, but we ought to know whether the local authority or the private individual has a right of appeal. It is most important.

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL
I would refer my hon. Friend to the Seventh Schedule. He will find at the bottom of page 133 the words: no appeal shall lie from any decision of the tribunal under this Act. I cannot give any assurance that it is intended to alter that Schedule.