HC Deb 19 November 1931 vol 259 cc1141-5
Major MILNER

I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, at the end, to insert the words: (3) All regulations made under this Sec-won shall be laid before the Commons House of Parliament as soon as may be after they are made and, if an Address is presented to His Majesty by the Commons House within the next subsequent twenty days on which that House has sat next after any such regulation is laid before it praying that the regulation may be annulled, it shall thenceforth be void, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or to the making of any new regulation. The Committee will observe that the object of the Amendment is to provide that the regulations which the Bill says may be made by the Commissioners shall be laid on the Table of the House. I can imagine the indignation of hon. Members on the Opposition side in the last Parliament had the Labour Government put forward the suggestion which is made in this Clause to the effect that the Commissioners may make regulations enabling their officers to require any person concerned with the importation of articles into the United Kingdom to furnish to the Commissioners in such form as they may require such information as is in their opinion necessary for a proper valuation of the articles, and to produce any any books of account or other documents of whatever nature relating to the purchase, importation, or re-sale of the articles by that person. I can recall the indignation with which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Holland-with-Boston (Mr. Blindell), who is now sitting on the Front Bench opposite, met much more moderate provisions than these in the Agricultural Market- ing Bill. We should have heard a great deal as to the gross interference with the liberty of the subject in endeavouring to justify the making of regulations that the Commissioners shall demand all books and documents and access to any premises. This is a very serious matter indeed, and I suggest that hon. Gentlemen opposite should give it their careful consideration. The very least thing which this Bill ought to provide is that these regulations should be laid upon the Table of the House. They can be made in a hole-and-corner fashion, and the House will have no opportunity to express an opinion upon them. It will, presumably, be only after expense has been incurred and with difficulty that the importers will be able to know the regulations with which they have to comply.

The regulations are, apparently, going to be of the widest possible character, and I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should reconsider this particular part of the Bill, and possibly accept the Amendment which I have moved. There are precedents for the inclusion of the form of my Amendment. I am inclined to think that under the Weights and Measures Acts, which, I believe, are administered by the right hon. Gentleman's Department and deal with matters which are nothing like as important as the matters likely to be dealt with under this Bill, regulations have to be laid before Parliament. I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that we on this side are doing our best at any rate to make the Measure, although we object to it in principle, a little more acceptable, perhaps, and certainly a good deal more workable. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will see fit to accept the Amendment.

Mr. HORE-BELISHA

I do not think that my hon. Friend who moved the Amendment need take quite so serious a view of these regulations. They are merely mechanism to enable the Commissioners to ascertain the value of the article, and therefore do justice to the parties concerned, and not in the nature of the orders which the President of the Board of Trade is to make, which, of course, quite properly are to come before this House in the shape of a Resolution for confirmation. This is just an ordinary piece of departmental mechanism. At any rate, I may perhaps allay his suspicions if I tell him that these regulations will be published in the "London Gazette" and in the Statutory Rules and Orders. I hope that that will satisfy him that complete publicity will be given to these very simple regulations.

Sir S. CRIPPS

I am much obliged to the hon. Member for his explanation, but if these Rules are to be published as Statutory Rules and Orders, as I understand he now says they are to be, and not merely as Regulations, will it not be according to practice and precedent that they should be laid upon the Table of the House? Surely this House is entitled to be acquainted with Statutory Rules and Orders if they are to be made in that form. I would point out to the hon. Member that there have before been objections from other parts of the House to

Division No. 13.] AYES. [9.56 p.m.
Atllee, Clement Richard Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) Mason, David M. (Edinburgh, E.)
Batey, Joseph Hall, George H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Maxton, James
Sevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Hicks, Ernest George Milner, Major James
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts., Mansfield) Hirst, George Henry Parkinson, John Allen
Buchanan, George Jenkins, Sir William Price, Gabriel
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Cove, William G. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Thorne, William James
Cripps, Sir Stafford Kirkwood, David Tinker, John Joseph
Daggar, George Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Watts-Morgan, Lieut.-Col. David
Davies, David L. (Pontypridd) Lawson, John James Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leonard, William Williams, Edward John (Ogmore)
Duncan, Charles (Derby, Claycross) Logan, David Gilbert Williams, Dr. John H. (Llanelly)
Edwards, Charles Lunn, William Williams, Thomas (York, Don Valley)
Grenfell, David Bees (Glamorgan) McEntee, Valentine L.
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) McGovern, John TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Grundy, Thomas W. Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Mr. John and Mr. Duncan Graham.
NOES.
Agnew, Lieut.-Com. P. G. Bossom, A. C. Clarry, Reginald George
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l, W.) Boulton, W. W. Clayton, Dr. George C.
Allen, Maj. J. Sandeman (B'k'nh'd, W) Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Cooke, James D.
Allen, William (Stoke-on-Trent) Bower, Lieut.-Com. Robert Tatton Cooper, A. Duff
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) Bowyer, Capt. Sir George E. W. Copeland, Ida
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Boyce, H. Leslie Craddock, Sir Reginald Henry
Applin, Lieut.-Col. Reginald V. K. Braithwaite, J. G. (Hillsborough) Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Apsley, Lord Broadbent, Colonel John Crooke, J. Smedley
Aske, Sir William Robert Brocklebank, C. E. R. Crookshank, Col. C. de Windt (Bootle)
Atholl, Duchess of Brown, Ernest (Leith) Crookshank, Capt. H. C. (Gainsb'ro)
Atkinson, Cyril Browne, Captain A. C. Cronm-Johnson, R. P.
Baillie, Sir Adrian W. B. Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Cross, R. H.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Burghley, Lord Crossley, A. C.
Balniel, Lord Burgin, Dr. Edward Leslie Cruddas, Lieut.-Colonel Bernard
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Burnett, John George Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. C. C.
Barrie, Sir Charles Coupar Butt, Sir Alfred Davies, Edward C. (Montgomery)
Barton, Capt. Basil Kelsey Calne, G. R. Hall Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Beauchamp, Sir Brograve Campbell Campbell, Rear-Adml. G. (Burnley) Dixey, Arthur C. N.
Beaumont, M. W. (Bucks., Aylesbury) Campbell-Johnston, Malcolm Donner, P. W.
Beaumont, R. E. B. (Portsm'th, Centr'l) Caporn, Arthur Cecil Doran, Edward
Beit, Sir Alfred L. Castle Stewart, Earl Dower, Captain A. V. G.
Bern, Sir Arthur Shirley Cayzer, Sir Charles (Chester, City) Drewe, Cedric
Bennett, Capt. Sir Ernest Nathaniel Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Duggan, Hubert John
Bernays, Robert Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Duncan, James A. L. (Kensington, N.)
Betterton, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry B. Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Dunglass, Lord
Birchall, Major Sir John Denman Chapman, Col. R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Eales, John Frederick
Bird, Ernest Roy (Yorks., Skipton) Chapman, Sir Samuel (Edinburgh, S.) Eastwood, John Francis
Bird, Sir Robert B. (Wolverh'pton W.) Choriton, Alan Ernest Leofric Eden, Robert Anthony
Borodale, Viscount Chotzner, Alfred James Edmondson, Major A. J.

Regulations which required the production of documents for the proof of value. I seem to remember that during certain proposals regarding the taxation of land values, there were some very violent protestations made as regards the production of documents simply in order to prove the value so that the valuer might act fairly between the parties. I suggest to the hon. Member that if these are to be published as Statutory Rules and Orders, there can be no harm in laying them upon the Table of the House, because it will not delay their operation in any way, but will give an opportunity for anybody who objects to them to raise the question in the ordinary way by a Prayer, and to have the matter here discussed.

Question put "That those words be there inserted."

The House divided: Ayes, 45; Noes,285.

Ellis, Robert Geoffrey Lees-Jones, John Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Elliston, Captain George Sampson Leighton, Major B. E. P. Ross, Ronald D.
Eimley, Viscount Lennox-Boyd, A. T. Ross Taylor, Walter (Woodbridge)
Emmott, Charles E. G. C. Levy, Thomas Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Entwistle, Major Cyril Fuliard Liddall, Walter S. Runge, Norah Cecil
Erskine, Lord (Weston-super-Mare) Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Erskine-Boist. Capt. C. C. (Blk'pool) Llewellyn-Jones, Frederick Russell, Hamer Field (Shel'ld, B'tside)
Essenhigh, Reginald Clare Lyons, Abraham Montagu Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury)
Foot, Dingle (Dundee) Mabane, William Rutherford, Sir John Hugo
Foot, Isaac (Cornwall, Bodmin) MacAndrew, Maj. C. G. (Partick) Salt, Edward W.
Ford. Sir Patrick J. MacAndrew. Capt. J. O. (Ayr) Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Fraser, Captain Ian McEwen, J. H. F. Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. McKie, John Hamilton Sandeman, Sir A. N. Stewart
Fuller, Captain A. E. G. Maclean, Rt. Hn. Sir D. (Corn'll N.) Sanderson, Sir Frank Barnard
Ganzoni, Sir John McLean, Dr. W. H. (Tradeston) Savery, Samuel Servington
Gibson, Charles Granville Macquisten, Frederick Alexander Scone, Lord
Gillett, Sir George Masterman Makins, Brigadier-General Ernest Selley, Harry R.
Glossop, C. W. H. Manningham-Buller, Lt.-Col. Sir M. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Gluckstein, Louis Halle Margesson, Capt. Henry David R. Shaw, Captain William T. (Forfar)
Goldie, Noel B. Mayhew, Lieut.-Colonel John M. Simmonds, Oliver Edwin
Goodman, Colonel Albert w. Millar, James Duncan Smiles, Lieut.-Col. Sir Walter D.
Gower, Sir Robert Mitchell, Harold P. (Br'tf'd & Chisw'k) Smith, Sir Jonah W. (Barrow-In-F.)
Greene, William P. C. Molson, A. Harold Elsdale Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Moore-Brabazon, Lieut.-Col. J. T. C. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro', W.) Moreing, Adrian C. Somervell, Donald Bradley
Guinness, Thomas L. E. B. Morgan, Robert H. Somerville, Annesley A. (Windsor)
Gunston, Captain D. W. Morris, John Patrick (Salford. N.) Soper, Richard
Guy, J. C. Morrison Morris, Owen Temple (Cardiff, E.) Sotheron-Estcourt, Captain T. E.
Hanley, Dennis A. Muirhead, Major A, J. Southby, Commander Archibald R. J.
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Munro, Patrick Stanley, Lord (Lancaster, Fylde)
Harris, Percy A. Nail, Sir Joseph Stones, James
Hartland, George A. Nail-Cain, Arthur Ronald N. Stourton, John J.
Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Nation, Brigadier-General J. J. H. Strauss, Edward A.
Henderson, Sir Vivian L. (Chelmsford) Normand, Wilfrid Guild Strickland, Captain W. F.
Heneage, Lieut-Colonel Arthur P. O'Donovan, Dr. William James Sugden, Sir Wilfrid Hart
Herbert, George (Rotherham) Oman, Sir Charles William C. Sutcliffe, Harold
Hillman, Dr. George B. Ormiston, Thomas Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A. (Pd'gtn, S.)
Hills. Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Palmer, Francis Noel Templeton, William P.
Holdsworth, Herbert Patrick, Colin M. Thomas, James P. L. (Hereford)
Hope, Sydney (Chester, Staiybridge) Peake, Captain Osbert Thomson, Sir Frederick Charles
Hore-Belisha, Leslie Pearson, William G. Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Hornby, Frank Peat, Charles U. Thorp, Linton Theodore
Howard, Tom Forrest Penny, Sir George Touche, Gordon Cosmo
Howitt, Dr. Alfred B. Perkins, Walter R. D. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Peters, Dr. Sidney John Wallace, Captain D. E. (Hornsey)
Hudson, Robert Spear (Southport) Peto, Geoffrey K. (W'verh'ptn, Bliston) Wallace, John (Dunfermline)
Hume, Sir George Hopwood Pickering, Ernest H. Ward, Lt.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hunter, Dr. Joseph (Dumfries) Pickford, Hon. Mary Ada Ward, Irene Mary Bewick (Wallsend)
Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. sir Aylmer Pike, Cecil F. Ward, Sarah Adelaide (Cannock)
Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. (M'tr'se) Potter, John Watt, Captain George Steven H.
Hutchison, W. D. (Essox, Romf'd) Powell, Lieut.-Col. Evelyn G. H. Wells, Sydney Richard
Inskip, Sir Thomas W. H. Procter. Major Henry Adam Weymouth, Viscount
Jackson, Sir Henry (Wandsworth, c.) Purbrick, R. Whiteside, Borras Noel H.
James, Wing-Com. A. W. H. Raikes, Hector Victor Aipin Whyte, Jardine Bell
Jamieson, Douglas Ramsay, Alexander (W. Bromwich) Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Jennings, Roland Ramsay, Capt. A. H. M. (Midlothian) Wills, Wilfrid D.
Johnston, J. W. (Clackmannan) Ramsay, T. B. W. (Western Isles) Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Johnstone, Harcourt (S. Shields) Ramsbotham, Herswald Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonul George
Jones, Lewis (Swansea, West) Ramsden, E. Withers, Sir John James
Ker, J. Campbell Rea, Walter Russell Womersley, Walter James
Kerr, Hamilton W. Reed, Arthur C. (Exeter) Wood, Major M. McKenzie (Banff)
Kirkpatrick, William M. Reid. James S. C. (Stirling) Worthington, Dr. John V,
Knatchbull, Captain Hon. M. H. R. Remer, John R, Wragg, Herbert
Lamb, Sir Joseph Quinton Renwick, Major Gustav A. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton (S'V'noaks)
Law, Sir Alfred Rhys. Hon. Charles Arthur U.
Law, Richard K. (Hull, S.W.) Roberts, Aied (Wrexham) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Leckie, J. A. Robinson, John Roland Sir Victor Warrender and Mr. Blindell.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.