§ 1. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £85,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure in respect of Employment Exchange and Insurance Buildings, Great Britain (including Ministries of Labour and Health and the Department of Health for Scotland)."
§ 2. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £19,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure in respect of Customs and Excise, Inland Revenue, Post Office and Telegraph Buildings in Great Britain, certain Post Offices abroad, and for certain Expenses in connection with Boats and Launches belonging to the Customs and Excise Department."
§ 3. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £42,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure in respect of Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens."
§ 4. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £60,000, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure in respect of Sundry Public Buildings in Great Britain, not provided for on other Votes, including Historic Buildings, Ancient Monuments and Brompton Cemetery."
§ 5. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £49,500, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for expenditure in respect of Public Buildings Overseas."
§ 6. "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1931, for Expenditure in respect of Public Works and Buildings in Ireland."
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSI beg to move to leave out "£85,000" and to insert instead thereof "£80,000."
This is one of the few occasions which private Members get to discuss the 339 financial bearings of the various Departments. The Supplementary Estimate for Labour and Health Buildings is made up of five different sums. The first is for new works, additions and alterations, for which another £10,000 is being asked. In view of the present position of affairs, and in view of the fact that the provision for improved accommodation has always been very large and the fact that £309,000 has already been spent, I would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain why there is such a colossal increase. [Interruption.] One hon. Gentleman below the Gangway at least is interested in this matter. If he has anything further to say on the subject, and can give me any enlightenment, and do it better than Members on the Front Bench, I shall be delighted to listen to what he has to say.
§ Mr WILLIAMSI notice that I am glad to hear that one Member of the Liberal party at any rate loyally obeys his master's voice.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSThe hon. Member is very exact in his wording, and in present circumstances it is as well that he should be exact. On the earlier stage of this Estimate, Subhead E was not cleared up. There is an increased provision for rents for temporary exchanges of £25,000. May we be informed in connection with this large sum—[An HON. MEMBER: "No!"] Hon. Gentlemen do not want to be informed. I have no doubt that dense ignorance is in many ways their best acquisition. May we be told why, in so many cases, they have taken temporary Employment Exchanges? Would it not have been possible to make additions to the existing Exchanges, and thus save adding to the burdens of the taxpayers?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTEI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Major SALMONI would like to ascertain from the right hon. Gentleman some information regarding the figure which has been put down for a particular Exchange at Bristol to which he referred in his speech a few days ago. Will he say whether this is the only Employment 340 Exchange at Bristol, or whether there is more than one site for an Exchange in Bristol?
§ The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Lansbury)I would like to tell the hon. and gallant Member before he goes any further that it is only a very small sum in respect of the Bristol Exchange.
§ Major SALMONWill the right hon. Gentleman kindly explain what, in fact, is the position? It may he necessary to have that Exchange, and I am not challenging that point, but I would like to understand the position. As I understood the right hon. Gentleman the other night, he twitted an hon. Member representing Bristol because there was not an Exchange in that part of the country. It would be interesting to know what site the Ministry have chosen for this Exchange, whether that site was the only one contemplated, and, also, whether there has been any difficulty in connection with it. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will give the House the details, as I feel they would be very interesting.
§ Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUELI am somewhat surprised to find that the right hon. Gentleman takes the line that only a small amount of money is involved in this matter. I believe that one or two of my colleagues on this side will bear me out when I say that the site for this Exchange is in a very important and very expensive position. I may be wrong, and I speak under correction, but I believe it is a very expensive site. If my memory serves me rightly, the site was taken at £750 a year in perpetuity, we expended £700 or £800 on something, and we paid £500 compensation. We have already paid £3,500. If my memory serves me still further, we are under an obligation to erect on the site a building to cost something like £15,000, and now we are not going to take the site! If the right hon. Gentleman comes down now and says in a light and airy way, "Why there is nothing in this; there is no money involved, except a very small amount," then I must bear out what my hon. Friend has said. Here is something which must be unmasked, and we want to know all about it. Very properly the Minister for Labour found it necessary to go to the place in question very recently in order to find out what had 341 happened. I do not know what arrangements have been made, but I have been told that the site which was selected for the Employment Exchange was found to be entirely unsuitable. Had the First Commissioner of Works told us quite frankly that he had something to say about this extra requirement, I should not have gone into it so much, but it seems extraordinary that he should get up in this way as if only a few pounds were at stake.
As the hon. and gallant Member for Harrow (Major Salmon) has put the question, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will say what he is going to do with the £15,000 liability, and whether there is yet any settlement made as to what sites will be used, and whether the particular site to which I have referred has been utterly done away with and disregarded. Hon. Members behind me will probably want to know what arrangements have been made. I support the hon. Member below the Gangway in asking the Minister to fill in the details as to the local requirements in order that we may get to the bottom of this matter.
§ Major COLFOXI am not proposing to refer to what has been said about the Bristol Exchange, but there are one or two points which, in my judgment, require an explanation. The first point upon which I should like some further information is the item of £5,000 under the heading of repairs and maintenance. It appears to me that when you are dealing with the repairs and maintenance of a considerable number of buildings scattered over a considerable area, it ought to be possible to estimate the cost much more accurately than has been done in this case. After all, this country is not subject to violent storms and hurricanes that destroy buildings on a large scale, and surely this Estimate of £5,000 is most unworthy, and calls for an explanation. Another point to which I should like to call attention is the Estimate of £7,000 required for buying new furniture for the new offices. During the earliest stage of the Supplementary Estimate a question was put on this subject, but it was not answered. I want to know why it is considered necessary always to buy new furniture for these new offices, because it is well known that when offices are closed and discarded, 342 the old furniture is disposed of at a great sacrifice, and when new offices are erected new furniture is bought. There is always a constant supply of secondhand furniture which is available, and with which the private citizens of this country have to content themselves. Much of the second-hand furniture which is on offer in the shops throughout all the towns of this country would amply suffice for the needs of Government offices, and a substantial saving might be made in that direction.
The third point to which I desire to direct attention, and on which I should like some information, is with regard to what has come to be known as the restoration of the super-cut. When the original Estimates were under discussion in the different Departments of the Government, the over-ruling authority, that is to say, I suppose, the Treasury, decided that many of these Estimates should be subject to a super-cut—in this case a matter of £38,000. It seems to me to be futile and useless for these super-cuts to be imposed unless they are insisted upon and acted upon, but here we find that a Government Department which, probably quite rightly, has been subjected to one of these super-cuts, has paid no attention to the instructions which it has received from the Treasury in this matter, but, apparently, has gone on spending money over and above the sum granted to it by Parliament to such an extent that the super-cut has been wiped out and the amount has had to be reinstated in the Supplementary Estimate.
This present Estimate is not the only one to which these remarks apply. There are numerous other Estimates in the case of which the super-cut has been reinstated in the Supplementary Estimate. Therefore, it seems to me to be extremely necessary that we should have an adequate explanation as to why the various Departments, and this one in particular, have not carried out the orders which they have received from Parliament, namely, to spend not more than a certain sum of money. This House votes regularly that "a sum not exceeding" a certain amount shall be granted to His Majesty for certain services, but that amount is frequently exceeded, in spite of the wording of the 343 Resolution which authorises the expenditure. It seems to me to be futile that we should go on year after year authorising certain Departments to spend sums not exceedings certain amounts, well knowing that they may, and frequently do, exceed those amounts. Having spent the money, as in this case, they come to the House of Commons and ask for authority to cover their transgression in this respect and to whitewash their sins. It seems to me that it would be only right and proper that they should be refused these supplementary amounts, because they have definitely gone against the instructions of Parliament. This is not the only case of the kind in these Supplementary Estimates. If we can be given a satisfactory answer why those super-cuts have been reinstated, it may not be necessary to refer to each one as we come across it, but it is only right to the House that that satisfactory, explanation should be given once and for all and as soon as possible.
§ Captain GUNSTONIf I remember rightly, when we discussed the Estimates in Committee we were told that the money had been spent owing to the very good weather we have had this year and that there had been no delay in building. The super-cut had not worked because the climate had not delayed operations as it did last year. It would be very easy for any Government to super-cut the Estimates and say. "We are making economies in this, that and the other," when all that is happening is that they are handing it on to the next year. We ought to be given some explanation of the policy in regard to the super-cut.
§ Mr. CULVERWELLI should not have intervened if I had not heard the name of Bristol mentioned. I am much obliged to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Harrow (Major Salmon) for having raised this question, which I was too modest to mention before. My hon. and gallant Friend, in complaining of the expenditure on the Bristol Exchange, can have no idea of the vast increase in unemployment that has taken place there since the present Government took office, otherwise he would have realised how urgent was the necessity for a better and a more commodious Exchange. I 344 have risen to my feet because the Minister has given such unsatisfactory replies in the past. I hope he will reply to the very pertinent questions which my hon. Friend has put to him. He accused me of pestering and badgering him for the last three years. He came in as a new broom who would be expected to sweep clean, but he has done nothing but collect dirt since he stepped into office. We hoped that he would carry out improvements which, perhaps, had not been made possible, or which the Conservative Administration had not had time to effect. The right hon. Gentleman has consistently given me unsatisfactory replies and he must not be surprised if I have consistently badgered him on the point. Even now I am not sure when he actually intends starting work on the Exchange.
Included in this Estimate there is a certain amount of money for expenditure on it. I could not get out of him on the last occasion what amount was included or for what purpose it was included. I hope he will give us an answer to the question this evening. I should be out of order in asking him when he really intends starting work on this Exchange. Perhaps he will find an opportunity of mentioning it in his reply. He has included in this Estimate a sum for expenditure upon this Exchange. It is an unknown amount, and I think we are entitled to know exactly upon what it is being spent. I agree with my right hon. Friend that there has been waste over this question. The question has been hanging over for months, and, indeed, for years, not only to the inconvenience of those who are interested in this question, but to the inconvenience of a great number of unemployed in Bristol. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to try to hasten work upon this particular object, to give us an explanation of the expenditure which is included in this Vote, and that he will try to display a little more energy in this respect than he has been able to display in the past.
§ Mr. SMITHERSDuring the Committee stage of these Supplementary Estimates I asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury a question which he made no attempt whatever to answer. I wish to repeat it to-night, in the hope that he has had time to make the necessary Inquiries. I want to call attention to the money expended upon what I may call 345 non-wasting assets, that is to say upon furniture, new works, additions and purchases. When this money is spent, is it completely written off and no account taken of it in the financial accounts at the end of the year, or is some credit allowed? Is some credit taken for those non-wasting assets, and is the Budget richer to that extent?
§ Mr. ALBERYI want to ask the hon. Gentleman for an answer to a question which I put to him the other day in Committee, as to whether he can give the House an explanation of the discrepancy which appears to exist between the cost of building Employment Exchanges in one city and the cost of building Employment Exchanges in another city of somewhat similar standard. Can we be assured that every effort is made to practice economy in this respect? It appears that in the City of Glasgow an Employment Exchange costs £28,000, whereas in the City of Sheffield, which I imagine is a city of not greater importance, it costs £39,000. I wonder how it is that there is this discrepancy?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI do not see any sums put down in his Estimate for new buildings.
§ Mr. ALBERYI understood that the Supplementary Estimate covered those items to some small extent, and I thought that I was in order in that case in asking those questions.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI understand that the Estimate is for improved accommodation, and not for new buildings.
§ Mr. C. WILLIAMSOn that point of Order. Item E refers to:
Provision required consequent upon the hiring of additional premises for use as temporary Employment Exchanges.Does not that cover the point?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThis is for hiring, and not for building.
§ Mr. WILLIAMSYou have to build on what you hire.
§ Mr. A. M. SAMUELWe are always in a difficulty on a Vote of this kind. On page 17 of the Supplementary Estimates there is a figure of £38,000, comprising Items A to N. We do not know to what particular items that £38,000 can be 346 allocated. It seems to cover so much ground that perhaps you, Mr. Speaker, might find it possible to allow the discussion to take place, because some of the money may refer to the points with which the hon. Member is dealing.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt does not happen to deal with them.
§ Mr. EVERARDIn Item E there is the sum of £25,000 which, I gather, is due to the increase in unemployment. As I represent a very scattered area, I have received a good many complaints from people about their difficulty in having to go to Employment Exchanges a long way from home. Is any part of this sum devoted to the temporary Employment Exchanges in rural areas? I am sure the hon. Gentleman will realise that there are large numbers of unemployed who have to go many miles to draw their out-of-work pay. I know it has been said, when I have asked the Government before about this point, that there are plenty of omnibus services and so on. That is not so. A great many of these out-of-the-way places are not connected up with Exchanges in rural areas by omnibus services at all. I should like some satisfactory answer on that point, and to know that some portion of this sum is expended on improving the Employment Exchanges in rural areas.
Then we have heard a great deal about building a new Exchange in Bristol. I should like to know whether the facilities there are any different from the facilities in Leicester and whether any part of this £10,000 for new works is being devoted to the improvement of Employment Exchanges in Leicester, seeing that that money can be found for improvements in Bristol? The last point is this: I see that we are asked to find another £7,000 for furniture. Can the hon. Gentleman give a satisfactory assurance that none of this £7,000 is being devoted to the purchase of furniture made with Russian timber? We are passing through very difficult times in this country, we have many people unemployed in the furniture trade and we have difficulty with our Canadian friends in finding a market for timber. I certainly think the least the Government can do, when they come to this House with an Estimate of £7,000 for new furniture for a Government Department, is to say definitely that the 347 money is to be spent on furniture made from timber from the British Empire, and not from any foreign countries. I have raised the question of the use of foreign goods by Government Departments a great many times in this House, and I have never received a satisfactory answer. The hon. Gentleman says that if they can get it cheaper from Russia, why not do it, and so on? Personally, I am one of those who believe that it is cheapest in the long run to buy from our own people or the Dominions. I shall not be satisfied unless I get a definite assurance that the whole of this furniture is made from timber from the British Empire.
§ Mr. MARJORIBANKSDuring the Committee proceedings I addressed to the First Commissioner a definite question in regard to Russian timber, but he refused to give me an answer. The right hon. Gentleman took umbrage at my suggestion that he had special knowledge of Russian timber. I did not think that he would take that as an insult, but rather as a compliment. I am sorry that I said he had special knowledge of that kind. I asked him at Question Time whether he would give an undertaking not to use Russian timber in any of the work of his Department, but he gave me a negative reply worthy of the late President of the Board of Education. Having regard to that refusal, I think my hon. Friends are entitled to raise this matter on the question of furniture.
The right hon. Gentleman must realise that there is some sincerity on this side of the House. A great many of us have been deeply moved by the evidence which has been produced about this very terrible matter, and we think that it would be a crime for any Government Department to use any Russian timber. We think that it is unpatriotic for a private contractor to use Russian timber, and for any Government Department to use it is an insult to the British unemployed. We do not suggest that the right hon. Gentleman has consciously used Russian timber, but as he has not taken any precautions against using it, we must insist upon an answer. He could easily issue regulations and take precautions to acquire information on the subject. It may be that in connection with this particular Vote Russian timber may be 348 used. As the right hon. Gentleman is. a man of humane and gentle character in private life we ask him to use the same principles in public life that he uses in private life, and protect the British workmen against this tragic form of competition.
§ Mr. SPEAKERMr. Lansbury.
§ Mr. McKINLAYI consider that grossly unfair.
§ Mr. LANSBURYIf the hon. Member wishes, I will give way.
§ Mr. McKINLAYNo, but it is grossly unfair. I was on my feet before the Minister got up.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe discussion this evening has ranged over some of the questions that we thoroughly discussed the other night. [HON. MEMBERS: "But we got no answer!"] The point in regard to the cut is this, that we take our experience over a number of years, and on that experience we base the cut. It appears this year that we have been extremely fortunate in our negotiations for buying sites and in carrying on the work of building Exchanges, and the consequence is that instead of being able to save on the cut we have had to spend it. With regard to furniture, I am not able to decide whether Russian timber shall or shall not come into the country. That is not my business. My business is to get the job carried through as efficiently and as cheaply as possible, with this one exception, of which I told the Committee the other night, that this Department and all Government Departments are carrying out the policy laid down by the previous Government, that an advantage of so much per cent. shall be given to British goods, whether made in the Dominions or produced in the Dominions, or in this country. That is being carried out at the present time.
§ Mr. MARJORIBANKSMay I ask whether Russian timber is used?
§ Mr. LANSBURYIt may or may not be used, but I have no authority to prohibit the use of Russian timber. It is allowed to be used in this country; there is no order by the Government or by this House to say that Russian timber shall not be used, and I have no power to prohibit its use. That is the only 349 answer I can give the hon. Member; I have no power, no authority, to discriminate against Russia or any other foreign country. I am carrying out the principles laid down by the late Government that British producers, Dominion producers and our Colonial producers, shall have up to a certain percentage an advantage over all foreign goods.
§ Mr. MARJORIBANKSHas the right hon. Gentleman any power in making his contracts to see that only British or other timber is used?
§ Mr. LANSBURYI have only power to do that up to a certain percentage, as I have tried to tell the hon. Member several times. I have not that power, and I do not propose to ask for it. This question must be dealt with on a national basis and not by a single Department. With regard to the point of the hon. Member for Melton Mowbray (Mr. Everard), some of the hirings are in regard to smaller districts. I answered the question about furniture very fully the other night. It is needed because of the increase in temporary Exchanges, and we can only deal with the matter by putting in the sort of furniture that is needed. It must be remembered that chairs, tables, cabinets and partitions are required; things which one does not have in one's own home. With regard to the Bristol Employment Exchange, this matter is now before the Public Accounts Committee, and it would be rather injudicious of me to discuss the matter tonight. It is not in this Supplementary Estimate except that we are having to provide for a new site. I do not want to put the blame on anyone these things happen. The Public Accounts Committee are investigating it, and although I had nothing to do with the purchase of the existing site, I think, in fairness to my predecessor and to the Department, we should await the report of the Public Accounts Committee.
§ Mr. REMERIs it not a fact that in all Government contracts, for timber or for anything else, there is a Fair Wages Clause? Is there the same Clause in respect of Russian timber?
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe Clause is in all contracts—exactly the same Clause as my predecessor had.
§ Mr. McKINLAYWhy does the Department insist on using synthetic stone instead of natural stone which can be obtained in abundance in Scotland? Representations have been made that natural stone should be used in the erection of buildings, but in spite of that fact synthetic stone is used. It is not because there is any great difference in the cost of the two articles. In regard to furniture, I do not know whether hon. Members opposite are aware that we do not usually make furniture from Russian timber, and that is simply because the timber is not suitable for the purpose. I believe that we make a considerable amount of furniture from timber which comes from a place where the conditions are even worse than in Russia. In countries which supply mahogany the conditions are infinitely worse than in Russia. [HON. MEMBERS: "Nonsense."] That statement is no more nonsense than the suggestion from the other side that Baltic timber can be used for the making of office furniture. I ask the Minister to give an undertaking that due consideration will be given to unemployment amongst the quarrymen of Scotland, and that as far as possible natural stone will be used for carrying out the contracts of the Department.
§ Mr. A. M. SAMUELMay I ask one question?
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe are now on the Report stage and the hon. Member can speak only once.
§ Mr. SAMUELOn a point of Order. The First Commissioner asked me, in regard to Bristol, not to put my question about money, and I accede to that request, but I would like to put the question whether he has provided the site.
§ Mr. SMITHERSOn two occasions I have put a perfectly reasonable question to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and each time he has remained silent and refused to answer me.
§ Question put, "That '£85,000' stand part of the Resolution."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 129.
327| Division No. 179.] | AYES. | [9.31 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | Burgin, Dr. E. L. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Buxton, C. R. (Yorks, W. R. Elland) |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Benson, G. | Caine, Derwent Hall- |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Cameron, A. G. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Birkett, W. Norman | Cape, Thomas |
| Ammon, Charles George | Blindell, James | Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) |
| Angell, Sir Norman | Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Chater, Daniel |
| Arnott, John | Bowen, J. W. | Clarke, J. S. |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Bromfield, William | Cluse, W. S. |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Brooke, W. | Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. |
| Ayles, Walter | Brothers, M. | Cocks, Frederick Seymour |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Daggar, George |
| Batey, Joseph | Buchanan, G. | Dallas, George |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Burgess, F. G. | Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lawrence, Susan | Richards, R. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Lawson, John James | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Dukes, C. | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Ritson, J. |
| Duncan, Charles | Leach, W. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Ede, James Chuter | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Rowson, Guy |
| Edmunds, J. E. | Lees, J. | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Samuel Rt. Ron. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Egan, W. H. | Lindley, Fred W. | Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West) |
| Foot, Isaac | Logan, David Gilbert | Sanders, W. S. |
| Forgan, Dr. Robert | Longbottom, A. W. | Sandham, E. |
| Freeman, Peter | Longden, F. | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Lunn, William | Sexton, Sir James |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea[...]) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) | Mac Donald. Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Gill, T. H. | McElwee, A. | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Glassey, A. E. | McEntee, V. L. | Shield, George William |
| Gossling, A. G. | McKinlay, A. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Gould, F. | MacLaren, Andrew | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) | Shinwell, E. |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Granville, E. | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Gray, Milner | McShane, John James | Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Manning, E. L. | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Mansfield, W. | Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley) |
| Groves, Thomas E. | March, S. | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Marcus, M. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton) | Markham, S. F. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Marley, J. | Snell, Harry |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Marshall, Fred | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Mathers, George | Sorensen, R. |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Melville, Sir James | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zotland) | Messer, Fred | Stephen, Campbell |
| Hardle, George D. | Middleton, G. | Stewart, J. (St. Rollox) |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Millar, J. D. | Sullivan, J. |
| Haycock, A. W. | Mills, J. E. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Hayday, Arthur | Milner, Major J. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Montague, Frederick | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby) |
| Herriotts, J. | Morris, Rhys Hopkins | Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) |
| Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Tillett, Ben |
| Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Mort, D. L. | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Hoffman, P. C. | Muff, G. | Toole, Joseph |
| Hopkin, Daniel | Muggeridge, H. T. | Tout, w. J. |
| Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Murnin, Hugh | Townend, A. E. |
| Hudson, James H. (Huddarsfield) | Naylor, T. E. | Vaughan, David |
| Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | Viant, S. P. |
| Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Noel Baker, P. J | Walkden, A. G. |
| Isaacs, George | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) | Walker, J. |
| Jenkins, Sir William | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) | Watkins, F. C. |
| Johnston, Thomas | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Palin, John Henry | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Paling, Wilfrid | Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) |
| Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Palmer, E. T. | West, F. R. |
| Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) | Westwood, Joseph |
| Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) | Perry, S. F. | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Peters, Dr. Sidney John | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) |
| Kenworthy Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Kinley, J. | Pole, Major D. G. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Knight, Holford | Potts, John S. | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester, Loughb'gh) |
| Lang, Gordon | Price, M. P. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Pybus, Percy John | |
| Lathan, G. | Quibell, D. J. K. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Law, Albert (Bolton) | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson | Mr. Hayes and Mr. Thurtle. |
| Law, A. (Rossendale) | Raynes, W. R. | |
| NOES | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman | Campbell, E. T. |
| Alnsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles | Bird, Ernest Roy | Carver, Major W. H. |
| Albery, Irving James | Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Castle Stewart, Earl of |
| Allan, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l..W.) | Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) |
| Allan, Lt.-Col. Sir William (Armagh) | Boyce, Leslie | Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Bracken, B. | Chamberlain, Rt.Hn.Sir J. A.(Birm., W.) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Brass, Captain Sir William | Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Edgbaston) |
| Atkinson, C. | Briscoe, Richard George | Chapman, Sir S. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Christle, J. A. |
| Balfour, George (Hampstead) | Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Clydesdale, Marquess of |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Buchan-Hepburn, P, G. T. | Cobb, Sir Cyril |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Buchan, John | Cohen, Major J. Brunel |
| Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) | Butler, R. A. | Colfox, Major William Philip |
| Conway, Sir W. Martin | Haslam, Henry C. | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'te'y) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd,Henley) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Cranborne, Vitcount | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Ruggies-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Culverwell, c. T. (Bristol, West) | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Hurd, Percy A. | Se[...]soon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Inskip, Sir Thomas | Savery, S. S. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Knox, Sir Alfred | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine,C.) |
| Edmondson, Major A. J. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Smith-Carington, Neville W. |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Smithers, Waldron |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East) |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Fermoy, Lord | Long, Major Hon. Eric | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Fielden, E. B. | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland) |
| Ford, Sir P. J. | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South) |
| Forestier-Walker, Sir L. | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Galbraith, J. F. W. | Mitchell-Thomson. Rt. Hon. Sir W. | Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton) |
| Ganzoni, Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Gower, Sir Robert | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) | Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon |
| Grace, John | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) | Nield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Grattan-Doyle, sir N | Oman, Sir Charles William C. | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Greene, W. P. Crawford | O'Neill, Sir H. | Wayland, Sir William A. |
| Gritten, W. G. Howard | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Gunstan, Captain D. W. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Preston, Sir Walter Rueben | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Rawson, Sir Cooper | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) | Reid, David D. (County Down) | Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton |
| Hammersley, S. S. | Remer, John R. | |
| Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Rentoul, Sir Gervals S. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Reynolds, Col. Sir James | Captain Margesson and Captain |
| Wallace. |
First Resolution read a Second time.
| Division No. 180.] | AYES. | [11.8 p.m. |
| Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) | Haycock, A. W. | Oldfield, J. R. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hayday, Arthur | Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Hayes, John Henry | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) |
| Alpass, J. H. | Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) | Palin, John Henry |
| Ammon, Charles George | Herriotts, J. | Palmer, E. T. |
| Arnott, John | Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) | Perry, S. F. |
| Aske, Sir Robert | Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) | Peters, Dr. Sidney John |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Hoffman, P. C. | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Ayles, Walter | Hollins, A. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Hopkin, Daniel | Potts, John S. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hore-Belisha, Leslie | Price, M. P. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood | Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) | Pybus, Percy John |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Benson, G. | Jenkins, Sir William | Ramsay, T. B. Wilson |
| Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) | Johnston, Thomas | Raynes, W. R. |
| Birkett, W. Norman | Jones, F. Llewellyn- (Flint) | Richards, R. |
| Blindell, James | Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret | Jones, Rt. Hon. Leif (Camborne) | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Bowen, J. W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Ritson, J. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) | Romeril, H. G. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Kelly, W. T. | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Bromfield, William | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rothschild, J. de |
| Brooke, W. | Kinlay, J. | Rowson, Guy |
| Brothers, M. | Kirkwood, D. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Brown, Ernest (Leith) | Lang, Gordon | Sanders, W. S. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Sawyer, G. F. |
| Buchanan, G. | Lathan, G. | Scrymgeour, E. |
| Burgess, F. G. | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Sexton, Sir James |
| Eurgin, Dr. E. L. | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Calne, Derwent Hall- | Lawrence, Susan | Shaw, Ht. Hon. Thomas (Preston) |
| Cape, Thomas | Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) | Lawson, John James | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Shield, George William |
| Chater, Daniel | Leach, w. | Shiels, Dr. Drummond |
| Clarke, J. S. | Lee, Frank (Derby, N.E.) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Shinwell, E. |
| Cocks, Frederick Seymour | Lees, J. | Simmons, C. J. |
| Compton, Joseph | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Lindley, Fred W. | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Daggar, George | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Dallas, George | Logan, David Gilbert | Smith, Rennie (Penistone) |
| Dalton, Hugh | Longbottom, A. W. | Smith, Tom (Pontefract) |
| Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) | Longden, F. | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lunn, William | Sorensen, R. |
| Dudgeon, Major C. R. | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Stamford, Thomas W. |
| Dukes, C | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) | Stephen, Campbell |
| Duncan, Charles | Mac Donald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Strauss, G. R. |
| Ede. James Chuter | McElwee, A. | Sullivan, J. |
| Edmunds, J. E. | McEntee, V. L. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Eqan, W. H. | McKinlay, A. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S.W.) |
| Elmley, Viscount | MacNeill-Weir, L. | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Foot, Isaac | McShane, John James | Tillett, Ben |
| Freeman, Peter | Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Manning, E. L. | Toole, Joseph |
| George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Mansfield, W. | Tout, W. J. |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) | Marcus, M. | Townend, A. E. |
| Gibbins, Joseph | Markham, S. F. | Vaughan, David |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) | Marley, J. | Viant, S. P. |
| Gill, T. H. | Marshall, Fred | Walkden, A. G. |
| Gillett, George M. | Mathers, George | Walker, J. |
| Glassey, A. E. | Matters, L. W. | Watkins, F. C. |
| Gossling, A. G. | Maxton, James | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline) |
| Gould, F. | Melville, Sir James | Wellock, Wilfred |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Messer, Fred | Welsh, James (Paisley) |
| Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) | Middleton, G. | Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) |
| Granville, E. | Mills, J. E. | West, F. R. |
| Gray, Milner | Milner, Major J. | Westwood, Joseph |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Montague, Frederick | Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Morgan, Dr. H. B. | Wilkinson, Ellen C. |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Williams, David (Swansea, East) |
| Hall, F. (York, W.R., Normanton) | Mort, D. L. | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) |
| Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Muff, G. | Wilson, J. (Oldham) |
| Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Muggeridge, H. T. | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) |
| Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) | Murnin, Hugh | Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh) |
| Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) | Nathan, Major H. L. | Wise, E. F. |
| Hardle, George D. | Naylor, T. E. | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Karris, Percy A. | Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) | |
| Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Noel Baker, P. J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Paling. |
| NOES | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel. | Ferguson, Sir John | Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. |
| Albery, Irving James | Fielden, E. B. | Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) |
| Astor, Viscountess | Ford, Sir P. J. | Muirhead, A. J. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Ganzoni, Sir John | Nicholson, O. (Westminster) |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton | O'Connor, T. J. |
| Boothby, B. J. G. | Glyn, Major H. G. C. | O'Neill, Sir H. |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Percy, Lord Eustace (Hastings) |
| Boyce, Leslie | Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. | Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) |
| Bracken, B. | Gunston, Captain D. W. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Brass, Captain Sir William | Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. | Preston, Sir Walter Rueben |
| Briscoe, Richard George | Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Remer, John R. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. | Haslam, Henry C. | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Butler, R. A. | Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) | Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A. |
| Butt, Sir Alfred | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. | Salmon, Major I. |
| Campbell, E. T. | Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M.(Hackney, N) | Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney) |
| Cayzer, Maj.Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth.S.) | Hurd, Percy A. | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Christle, J. A. | Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D. |
| Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George | Inskip, Sir Thomas | Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Kindersley, Major G. M. | Smithers, Waldron |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Knox, Sir Alfred | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Stanley, Lord (Fylde) |
| Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. | Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. | Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord C. | Llewellin, Major J. J. | Sueter Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. C. | Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey | Thomson, Sir F. |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Locker-Lampson, com. O.(Handsw'th) | Todd, Capt. A. J. |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Lockwood, Captain J. H. | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Dairymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey | Long, Major Hon. Eric | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) | McConnell, Sir Joseph | Waterhouse, Captain Charles |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) | Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Dawson, Sir Philip | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay) |
| Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert | Margesson, Captain H. D. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
| Duckworth, G. A. V. | Marjoribanks, Edward | Womersley, W. J. |
| Eden, Captain Anthony | Mason, Colonel Glyn K. | |
| Edmondson. Major A. J. | Merriman, Sir F. Boyd | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Elliot, Major Walter E. | Millar, J. D. | Sir George Penny and Sir Victor |
| Everard, W. Lindsay | Mitchell-Thomson, Rt. Hon. Sir W. | Warrender. |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. |
§ Question, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution," put, and agreed to.
§ Second Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Sir DOUGLAS NEWTONThis Vote makes provision for further accommodation for the Inland Revenue authorities, and I presume that it provides further accommodation at Cambridge.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe only reason for this Vote is that the works have been done quicker than was anticipated. If the hon. Member can show that the work ought to have gone slower than it did, he will be in order.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI want to draw attention to the fact that the work is not going half quickly enough.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThis Vote is put down because the work has gone too quickly.
§ Sir D. NEWTONI am sorry if I am not in order. This is a serious question for the staff which is engaged in the offices—
§ Mr. LANSBURYThe staff and accommodation at Cambridge have nothing to do with it.
§ Mr. SMITHERSI should like to put the question which I put on the last occasion. I have learned by the courtesy of the Gentlemen who sit behind the Chair that the answer was sent to the Financial Secretary, and that he knew what the answer was when I last asked the question.
§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence)If we buy furniture, we, must, of course, pay for it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am afraid that the hon. Gentleman would not be in order in going into that matter.
§ Captain CROOKSHANKI have handed in a manuscript. Amendment—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI did not select that Amendment.
§ Captain CROOKSHANKIf I am not in order, I will enter a protest against the difficulty of ascertaining exactly where the fresh expenditure is required. The right hon. Gentleman states in the White Paper that this £19,500 is required under the various Sub-heads A to V in the original Estimate. What we object to is that it is impossible to tell where the £19,500 has gone to. If it is really spread over all those Sub-heads, then that would include Sub-head C, for furniture, and it is possible there was extra expenditure there. Apart from that, the statement does not seem to be quite accurate, because between A and V come Q, R, S, and T, most of them referring to services in respect of which it is possible to recover the expenditure from the Post Office. If any of the expenditure were under those Sub-heads it would be necessary to increase the Appropriations-in-Aid, and as that has not been done we are driven to the conclusion that those Sub-heads are not concerned with this £19,500 and that therefore the statement that it applies to A to V ought to be amended to, say, "A to P, inclusive." What I have said shows the difficulty of this form of Supplementary Estimate. I also wish to point out to the right hon. Gentleman that here we have a deduction of £19,500 in respect of £1,171,000, whereas in the Estimate we have just discussed we had a super-cut of £38,000 on a total Estimate of half that amount, £689,000. We wish to know on what principle this has been worked, and to protest against the scattering amongst all the Sub-heads of the gross amount of the Supplementary Estimate.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEWhen the Vote was before the Committee the First Commissioner of Works promised to convey to the Postmaster-General a request for information as to whether certain work in post offices in rural areas had been accelerated. The right hon. Gentleman has not communicated with me, and I should like to know whether the improvements he mentioned have actually been carried out. As I told him at the time, there are a lot of rural post offices which have no telephone boxes; the telephones are in the kitchens.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is a question which should have been raised on the main Estimates which have already passed the House. The only question which can arise on a Supplementary Estimate must concern the additional sum which is asked for. In this case, the extra money was required because the work already sanctioned had been put in hand more quickly.
§ Mr. EVERARDAre we not entitled to ask under which of the Sub-heads A to V the work has been accelerated?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat would be quite in order.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEI bow to your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I would remind the First Commissioner that he promised to convey to the Postmaster-General a request for information, and I have heard nothing since.
§ Mr. EVERARDI wish to ask under which of these sub-heads this extra £19,500 has been expended. We have a long list of things in paragraphs (a) to (b) dealing with new works, furniture and maintenance in connection with the Inland Revenue buildings. There is also an item in connection with the Post Office and Telegraphs building. It is a very extraordinary thing that the House should not have any sort of idea as to why all this expenditure is being incurred. I listened very carefully to the discussion on the Committee stage of this Vote, and I do not think that the First Commissioner of Works gave the Committee any idea as to how all this money had been spent. I do not intend to allow this Vote to go through unchallenged unless we get some further explanation from the Minister.
§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONI am not quite sure that I understood rightly your Ruling, Mr. Speaker. I believe you said that you did not propose to select or accept any manuscript Amendments. I wish to know if you are taking that course under Standing Order 27A.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI propose to do so under the powers which the Standing Order gives me to select Amendments.
§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONI should like to know whether the powers under Standing Order 27A apply to 357 Amendments which take the form of a reduction of the Estimates. I should like to be quite clear on this point.
§ Mr. SPEAKERCertainly, my power of selection applies to all forms of Amendments, no matter what they are. In this case, I object to Amendments being handed in late in the evening when the Vote has been on the Order Paper for several days, and when it was easy for hon. Members to put their Amendments down.
§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONI will only say in extenuation that, so far as my hon. Friends are concerned, we had no idea that the Government proposed to take these Votes to-night. We thought that all that they wanted was to get the Guillotine Motion through. Had we known that these Votes were going to be taken we should have taken another course.
§ Mr. LANSBURYI think hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite will see that it is quite impossible to proceed in the way suggested. There are 21 different items in this Vote, and they concern a number of departments, such as the Inland Revenue, Post Office, and Telegraphs. I should have thought that, in view of the discussion which took place on the Committee stage, instead of hon. Members asking why this and that had been done and why more works had not been carried out they would have congratulated the Department upon having done so much of this very necessary work. May I point out that we have now a new Postmaster-General, and he has not had an opportunity of looking into these matters.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Third Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Sir JOHN GANZONII notice that in the Committee stage of this Resolution the time taken up by the Debate was extremely short, and that there was no Division. I do not know whether that was out of consideration for the Minister in charge, who was suffering from a regrettable loss of voice, for which we were all extremely sorry, or whether it was due to the more natural, human cause that it happened to be just about 358 the dinner hour, or what the exact reason was, but the Resolution does not appear to have been gone very deeply into in Committee, and there are one or two points about which I should like to know something. I notice that the-Minister said that he had been able to put to work some 566 men for 22 weeks by spending, or at any rate partly by spending, this extra amount of £42,000 during the current year, and the supplementary amount, of course, was for "Unemployment Relief Works." The nature of the works is somewhat varied. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman said that he only undertook them on the advice of skilled expert advisers.
They are of a somewhat miscellaneous character, including additions and alterations to paths, painting or tarring, hurdles, fences, shin-rails, etc., cleaning out and weeding lakes, ponds and. streams, and so on. I do not know whether that work of cleaning out included the work which we have seen recently in St. James's Park opposite the Horse Guards Parade, where there are many birds and waterfowl—[Interruption]—yes, it is the home of the pelican. I remember noticing there some two or three weeks ago, on several days in succession, a very remarkable aroma, not to say stench or effluvium, but on one day I noticed a very decided improvement. The water had completely disappeared from one side of that great lake, and a, large number of men were hard at work upon what was then dry ground. I hope that these were some of the unemployed, but I should like the right hon. Gentleman to reasssure me as to what kind of unemployed they were, because the work set forth by the right hon. Gentleman—which I may say included also the removal of dead trees and timber and replanting, relaying land drains, attention to undergrowth, restoring grass areas, and digging and screening gravel—does not seem to me to supply, even at a cost of £42,000, the kind of work that would be of very much use to out-of-work clerks or shop assistants. I should like to be reassured that the right hon. Gentleman has remembered that in these deplorable times, when there are 2,600,000 unemployed, there must be among them men of very varying occupations, and that he will remember the interests of all of them when he is spending this £42,000 in the nine or 10 different parks which he 359 enumerated. I shall be very glad to supply him with further ideas; in fact, in conclusion, I will make him a present of one, and that is that, if there should be among the unemployed any man who is not capable of really hard work in the parks, the right hon. Gentleman might perhaps see his way to appointing a permanent valet for the pelicans, so that we shall not be offended by seeing that cafe au lait colour upon their beautiful plumage.
§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSONI beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
I do this in order to make a suggestion. There are two Votes in which we are particularly interested, Class 7, Vote 9, and Class 6, Vote 6. As regards the first, we had an understanding with the Chief Commissioner, that if we did not take the discussion in Committee we should have it at a later stage. It would be more consonant with a proper discussion of these subjects if the right hon. Gentleman would agree to adjourn the discussion now and take them at a more reasonable hour. If he is prepared to do that, I can undertake on behalf of my friends behind me, that there will be no undue prolongation of the Debate on the other points.
§ Mr. LANSBURYNone of us want to be up too late, especially myself. The proposal is that we should take Class 7, Vote 9, and Class 6, Vote 6, on another occasion at a reasonable hour and that we shall only devote a reasonable time to them. It must not be taken that we are going to give a day to two Votes. We shall be very glad to agree to this proposal. I would ask, in view of that, that we should get the other Votes, which were thoroughly discussed in Committee.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ Fourth Resolution read a Second time.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
§ Mr. ALBERYWhen this Vote was in Committee the right hon. Gentleman was asked what proportion of it was due to Brompton Cemetery and to what extent 360 the cemetery was concerned in the Vote, but the information was not given.
§ Mr. LANSBURYThere is nothing in this Vote for Brompton Cemetery.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Fifth Resolution read a Second time, and postponed.
§ Sixth Resolution agreed to.
§ Postponed Resolution to be further considered To-morrow.