§ Mr. MANDERI beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a domestic service commission; and for other purposes connected therewith.I introduce this Motion in the interests of both parties concerned—both mistresses and servants—because I appre- 818 ciate that any complaints that there may be with regard to matters of this kind are not one-sided. I am aware that this subject provokes very keen interest, not to say controversy. It deals with no fewer than 1,100,000 of our fellow-citizens. I should like to say at once that the greater number of these will be in no way affected by the provisions of this Bill, because I am quite ready to believe that in the vast majority of cases the conditions are quite satisfactory, the personal relations are all that could be desired, and no intervention by the State is called for. It is quite clear, wherever you have on either side ordinary consideration and good will, there is no problem at all which requires to be dealt with, but I do feel that there remains a minority of cases which does require some intervention by the State. When I first began to take an interest in this subject, at the direct request of some of my women constituents rather more than a year ago, I received a large correspondence from different parts of the country. Some letters of a very moving kind made me feel that the matter did require something to be done. Furthermore, there was the very significant investigation which was made by the education committee of Middlesbrough some time ago, when they produced evidence of rather a remarkable character showing that some action ought to be taken.In the main, the difficulties, I think, are psychological. There has arisen in the past, for some reason, a sort of feeling that domestic service is inferior, is of a nature that ought not to be undertaken by all sorts of people. I think that we want to do something to raise the status, and make people feel that the occupation of domestic service is as dignified and as honourable as any other occupation in this country, and that it ought not to be confined necessarily to one class of the community. I quite appreciate the very real difficulty there is in dealing with a problem of this kind. The relationship is so personal, so intimate, that you have to be very careful in making any proposals. Therefore, I do feel that if we could take any steps which would establish as a common rule throughout the country what is the usual practice among good employers at the present time, we should be promoting something which every Member of this House would be glad to see done, and I submit that this Bill promotes that result.
819 To come to the actual terms of the Bill, it sets out, first of all, that there shall be a domestic service commission of five members, of which the chairman and at least two others shall be women. The duties of this commission would be, in the first instance, to review comprehensively the conditions of employment and to promote measures to raise the status of the occupation; to promote the organisation of a consultative joint council for domestic service representative of employers and employed, and district councils subsidiary thereto; to consider by what methods, and in co-operation with what organisations and agencies, the training of domestic servants can most satisfactorily be promoted; and, further, in consultation with the Minister of Labour, to consider the following questions—the machinery for the engagement of domestic servants, the issue of certificates of proficiency, and the desirability of bringing domestic service within the ambit of the Unemployment Insurance Acts. Perhaps the most important Clause is Clause 4, which enables the commission, after consultation with the consultative council, to submit to the Minister draft regulations which, in due course, after going through the procedure which I will describe, would have the force of law. These regulations would be in the nature of a domestic servants charter, and they would, if the commission though fit, cover the following subjects: remuneration, hours of work, holidays, accommodation and recreation, with a view to making general the standards existing among good employers.
I hope that the House will realise the very great safeguards that are imposed in this Bill to prevent any regulations of an extreme or unreasonable nature being promulgated. There is a four-fold check. First of all, the commission would no doubt desire to carry with it the consultative committee. Then they would have to obtain the direct approval of the Minister of Labour, and, even then, when the Minister had put forward these regulations, they could be annulled by the House of Commons or the House of Lords. I think that it will be generally felt that any regulations that survive obstacles of that kind are not likely to be of an extreme nature, and are likely to command the assent of anybody associated with this problem. I hope the House will realise that this is a cautious 820 and moderate attempt to deal with a difficult problem that does require, to some small extent perhaps, the intervention of the State. I hope the House will be good enough to allow the First Reading of the Bill, so that the terms may be studied, and a first step may be taken to make it clear that Parliament recognises the occupation of domestic service as being equal in usefulness and in honour to any other occupation in the State.
§ Miss WILKINSONI am very sorry, indeed, to appear to oppose a well-meant attempt to deal with what is a serious problem, for I am the last person on earth not to wish to see an improvement in the conditions of domestic service——
§ Mr. MANDEROn a point of Order. I understand that the hon. Member is not opposing the introduction of the Bill, and, in that case, I desire to know whether it is in order to speak.
§ Miss WILKINSONI beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I was saying how good it was to bring in a Bill, but that I felt compelled to oppose it.
§ Mr. MANDERI understood the hon. Lady to say that she did not object to the First Reading and to the printing of the Bill.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Lady is not going to object to the Bill being brought in, I am afraid that she cannot speak on it.
§ Miss WILKINSONI am sorry if I gave that impression, because I am going to oppose the Bill, as I think it is the wrong way to bring about what the hon. Gentleman desires. I do not think that what he is proposing will ever result in getting anything done. I appreciate his desire to deal with what is not a new problem, but the old problem of long hours, bad conditions and wide variation in the pay of domestic servants. I do not share the hon. Member's optimism that a large number of domestic servants are well paid. A few are. The machinery of the Bill, of which the hon. Member considerately gave me a copy, is something approaching a combination of Whitley Council and Royal Commission. I suggest that the best way of achieving what the hon. Member desires would be 821 by some simple procedure, as, for example, that which is to be found in the Trade Boards Acts. The only way you are going to solve this very vexed problem is have something like a recognised minimum wage and a recognised maximum number of hours. If you have all the complicated machinery set up by this Bill, I think it will obscure the object in view, and nothing will happen as a result. While appreciating
§ to the full the very good intentions behind the Bill, I do not think that it will achieve a useful purpose, and I, therefore, oppose it.
§
Question put,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a domestic service commission; and for other purposes connected therewith.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 212; Noes, 89.
823| Division No. 285.] | AYES. | [4.13 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) | Hardie, David (Rutherglen) | Muff, G. |
| Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher | Harris, Percy A. | Nathan, Major H. L. |
| Alpass, J. H. | Hastings, Dr. Somerville | Naylor, T. E. |
| Ammon, Charles George | Haycock, A. W. | Noel Baker, P. J. |
| Angell, Sir Norman | Hayes, John Henry | Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) |
| Arnott, John | Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) | Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) |
| Attlee, Clement Richard | Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) | Palin, John Henry. |
| Ayles, Walter | Herriotts, J. | Paling, Wilfrid |
| Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) | Hirst, G. H. (York W. B. Wentworth) | Palmer, E. T. |
| Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) | Hoffman, P. C. | Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) |
| Barnes, Alfred John | Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) | Perry, S. F. |
| Barr, James | Hopkin, Daniel | Pethick-Lawrencs, F. W. |
| Batey, Joseph | Hunter, Dr. Joseph | Phillips, Dr. Marion |
| Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) | Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. | Picton-Turbervill, Edith |
| Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) | Isaacs, George | Potts, John S. |
| Bennett, William (Battersea, South) | Jenkins, Sir William | Price, M. P. |
| Benton, G. | John, William (Rhondda, West) | Rathbone, Eleanor |
| Bowen, J. W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Raynes, W. R. |
| Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. | Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. | Richards, R. |
| Broad, Francis Alfred | Kelly, W. T. | Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) |
| Brockway, A. Fenner | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) |
| Brooke, W. | Kin'ey, J. | Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Brothers, M. | Kirkwood, D. | Ritson, J |
| Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) | Knight, Holford | Roberts Rt. Hon. F. O.(W. Bromwich) |
| Brown, Ernest (Lelth) | Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) | Romerll, H. G. |
| Brown, Ht. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) | Lang, Gordon | Rosbotham, D. S. T. |
| Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George | Rowson, Guy |
| Buchanan, G. | Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) | Russell, Richard John (Eddlsbury) |
| Burgess, F. G. | Law, Albert (Bolton) | Salter, Dr. Alfred |
| Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) | Law, A. (Rossendale) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) |
| Cape, Thomas | Lawrence, Susan | Sanders, W. S. |
| Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) | Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) | Sexton, Sir James |
| Charleton, H. C. | Leach, W. | Shakespeare, Geoffrey H. |
| Chater, Daniel | Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) | Shepherd, Arthur Lewis |
| Church, Major A. G. | Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) | Sherwood, G. H. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lees, J. | Shield, George William |
| Compton, Joseph | Lewis, T. (Southampton) | Shillaker, J. F. |
| Cove, William G. | Lindley, Fred W. | Short, Alfred (Wednesbury) |
| Cripps, Sir Stafford | Lloyd, C. Ellis | Simmons, C. J. |
| Daggar, George | Logan, David Gilbert | Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington) |
| Dallas, George | Longbottom, A. W. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John |
| Dalton, Hugn | Lovat-Fraser, S. A. | Sinkinson, George |
| Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) | Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) | Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) |
| Day, Harry | MarDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) | Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | McElwee, A. | Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B.(Keighiey) |
| Ede, James Chuter | McEntee, V. L | Smith, Rennle (Penlstcne) |
| Edmunds, J. E. | McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston) | Smith. Tom (Pontefract) |
| Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) | Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan) | Smith, W. R. (Norwich) |
| Edwards, E. (Morpeth) | MacNeill-Welr, L. | Sorensen, R. |
| Egan, W. H. | McShane, John James | Stephen, Campbell |
| Foot, Isaac | Malone, C. L'Estranga (N'thampton) | Strauss, G. R. |
| Freeman, Peter | Manning, E. L. | Sullivan, J. |
| Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) | Mansfield, W. | Sutton, J. E. |
| Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) | March, S. | Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) |
| Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) | Marcus, M. | Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.) |
| Glassey, A. E. | Marshall, Fred | Thorne, W. (West Ham, plalstow) |
| Gossling, A. G. | Mathers, George | Thurtle, Ernest |
| Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) | Matters, L. W. | Tillett, Ben |
| Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) | Maxton, James | Tinker, John Joseph |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) | Messer, Fred | Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) | Millar, J. D. | Turner, Sir Ben |
| Groves, Thomas E. | Milner, Major J. | Vaughan, David |
| Grundy, Thomas W. | Morley, Ralph | Viant, S. P. |
| Hall G. H. (Merthyr Tydvll) | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Watkins, F. C. |
| Hail, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) | Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline). |
| Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.) | Mort, D. L. | Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) |
| Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) | Wise, E. F. |
| West, F. R. | Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) | Young, R. S. (Islington, North) |
| Westwood, Joseph | Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) | |
| White, H. G. | Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) | Wilson, J. (Oldham) | Mr. Mander and Mr. Gray. |
| Whiteley, William (Blaydon) | Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel | Flelden, E. B. | Perkins, W. R. D. |
| Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. | Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. | Pownall, Sir Assheton |
| Atkinson, C. | Galbraith, J. F. W. | Rawson, Sir Cooper |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) | Glyn, Major R. G. C. | Reynolds, Col. Sir James |
| Beaumont, M. W. | Grace, John | Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch't'sy) |
| Bellairs, Commander Carlyon | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. | Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) |
| Betterton, Sir Henry B. | Greene, W. P. Crawford | Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell |
| Bourne, Captain Robert Croft. | Hail, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) | Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth) |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Hamilton. Sir George (Ilford) | Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham) |
| Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. | Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry | Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart |
| Boyce, Leslie | Hartington, Marquess of | Savery, S. S. |
| Broadbent, Colonel J. | Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C.(Berks, Newb'y) | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. | Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam) |
| Burton, Colonel H. W. | Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. | Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.) |
| Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) | Smithors, Waldron |
| Cautley, Sir Henry S. | Jones, Llewellyn-, F. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Cobb, Sir Cyril | Knox, Sir Alfred | Spender-Clay, Colonel H. |
| Cohen, Major J. Brunel | Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) | Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland) |
| Colfox, Major William Philip | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F. |
| Colville, Major D. J. | Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) | Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W. |
| Cooper, A. Duff | Llewellin, Major J. J. | Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Lymington, Viscount | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert |
| Crookshank, Capt, H. C. | Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) | Warrender, Sir Victor |
| Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) | Makins, Brigadier-General E. | Wells, Sydney R. |
| Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) | Marjoribanks, Edward | Wilton, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) | Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George |
| Duckworth, G. A. V. | Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) | |
| Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) | Muirhead. A. J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Falle, Sir Bertram G. | O'Connor, T. J. | Sir Gerald Hurst and Mr. Remer. |
| Ferguson, Sir John | Penny, Sir George |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Mander, Mr. W. M. Adamson, Sir Ernest Bennett, Mr. Rhys Davies, Mr. Gray, Mr. Kingsley Griffith, Mr. Lovat-Fraser, and Mr. Simon.
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cc823-5
- DOMESTIC SERVICE BILL, 368 words