CLAUSE 11.—(Power to make regulations.) (Hansard, 17 July 1931)

§ Mr. TURTON
I beg to move, in page 11, line 24, to leave out the word "Any," and to insert instead thereof the words 1006 When the Minister proposes to make a. There are a number of Amendments which are consequential to this Amendment, and, if I may, I will deal with them together. The issue which remains, I think, between Members on this side and Members on the other side of the House is whether the regulations made under this Bill shall require a negative or an affirmative Resolution. We, on this side, believe that the House should have an opportunity of confirming regulations, and, if necessary, discussing them. It is a matter of some import that there are 26 regulations which the Minister will be prescribing under the Bill, and which, as the Bill stands, the House may not have an opportunity of discussing. Throughout the Committee stage it has been a constant complaint that these regulations are not in the Bill, and that we should know what is to be the regulation as to which bull should be licensed and which not licensed. At present, the Minister may order any bull to be licensed as soon as it is calved. We desire that such regulations should be brought forward in the full light of day, and discussed in this House. An Improvement of Live Stock Bill may do a great deal of good, or it may do a great deal of harm, and the question arises whether the regulations devised by the advisory committee are wise or unwise. I think it depends on whom the Minister chooses for his advisory committee. We have no say in their appointment, and we ask the Minister to accept this Amendment, so as to give us an opportunity, in due time, of discussing the regulations which are made under the Bill.

§ Mr. CHRISTIE
I beg to second the Amendment.
This is one of the most difficult points of the whole Measure, more especially as the Minister has put in words stating that the regulations may prescribe different ages for different breeds of bulls. The right hon. Gentleman tried to meet the case which was put up to him when he made that concession, but I think it is a very doubtful one, and needs to be most carefully scrutinised. The question of deciding when bulls are to be licensed is of such importance that the House 1007 ought not to give what you may call a negative consent, but should really have an opportunity of debating it. If this age limit is rightly fixed, it will make all the difference to the Bill. If it is wrongly fixed, it will cause the greatest inconvenience and the greatest worry and annoyance to breeders all over the country. I do implore the right hon. Gentleman if only for this reason—I do not think it matters half so much about the others—to accept this Amendment.

§ Dr. ADDISON
I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment, and I am sure the House will realise why not. I do not depreciate the importance of these regulations, but they are not more important than other regulations which have to be issued by the Department on all sorts of subjects, and which are required by Statute to be laid before Parliament. If anybody takes objection, that objection can be raised. But when any individual has some objection to make, however unimportant, it is not a practical way of doing business to say that there cannot be a definite Resolution of the House. Every Minister is subject to being criticised, and if he made a mistake in the regulations, I am certain he would soon hear about it. Questions would be asked, and the whole matter could be raised before the regulation could be dealt with. That is the usual Parliamentary procedure, and I see no reason why it should be departed from in this case. Another important safeguard, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Christie), is that we are going to set up an expert advisory committee to deal with these technical matters. That specialist committee, I am certain, will have public confidence. It is the right and sensible way of dealing with the matter, and if anything is wrong, we shall certainly hear about it, and vigilant Members opposite will, I have no doubt, require the Minister to give an explanation. Therefore, I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment.

§ Mr. TURTON
After the statement of the Minister, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Earl WINTERTON
I am glad that the Bill has reached this stage, for the reasons I mentioned on the Second Reading, and I think it is right to congratulate the Minister on having got it through. Some of my hon. Friends at an earlier stage expressed, as they were fully entitled to express, doubts about the expediency of the Bill, and also about certain Clauses in it, but, owing to the reasonableness which they displayed, and which, it is only fair to say, the Minister displayed, I think the right hon. Gentleman will agree with me that we have now reached a very fair compromise on this matter, and I hope that the Bill will prove successful in working and remove an evil.

§ Mr. ROSBOTHAM
I should like to congratulate the Minister on the Bill having reached this stage, and also to express appreciation of the kind words that have been expressed by the right hon. Gentlemen opposite.

§ Mr. TURTON
I should like to express my appreciation of the many concessions which the Minister has made, both on the Committee stage and the Report stage. Unlike the Noble Lord, I still view the Bill with some degree of suspicion, but the Minister has disarmed most of my objections by meeting them halfway, and sometimes a quarter way, and this Bill is a vastly different Bill from the Measure on Second Reading. The Minister has made the penalty a great deal less, and he has no longer made the farm labourer liable for a heavy fine, as the Bill provided when it came from the House of Lords, if he broke some provision of the Bill. The other large concession which the Minister made today will enable many farmers to appeal against decisions to which they object, whereas under the heavy penalty of five guineas, they would have had no opportunity of seeking redress from the faulty judgment of a referee who had inspected a bull. For these reasons, I shall not vote against the Bill, and I hope that it will prove a great success. That success will depend on the attitude that the Minister takes when the Bill is in force. I hope that he will give some latitude to the dale farmers in the remote areas, where they will have difficulty in understanding the Bill, and where an early fine will make them very stubborn in carrying out the Bill.

§ Mr. MACQUISTEN
I should like to add a word as to the urgent necessity for the Bill. Nothing is more desirable than the improvement of our stock. It is difficult for people in the remote parts of the country to do anything for themselves, and they certainly need the assistance of the Agricultural Departments. I remember some time ago receiving, from a crofter in a remote part of my constituency, a letter in these terms: Dear Sir,—We are very much handicapped in this area for the want of a bull, so we write to you as our Member of Parliament. We tried Sir William Sutherland, but he was no use; can you get us a bull? I engaged in a good deal of correspondence with the Scottish Office, and I ultimately succeeded in getting a bull to send to those remote parts. I received a grateful letter of thanks signed by a considerable number of my constituents, who looked forward with confidence to a considerable improvement in their stock. If the Minister interprets this Measure in the way that the Secretary of State of those days acted, I am sure that the Bill will be most beneficial and do a great deal to improve our agricultural position.

§ Mr. CHRISTIE
May I join in the chorus of congratulations to the Minister. I am more impressed with the concession he has made to-day than almost anything else that he has done. He has really shown his appreciation of the difficulties of farmers, and they will all be grateful to him for reducing the fee that has to be deposited on appeal. That is a great step forward, and I thank him for it. I will go further than other hon. Gentlemen, and say that this is by far the best Bill that the right hon. Gentleman has brought in in this Parliament, and I hope that the future Measures that he brings in will be as good.

§ Dr. ADDISON
May I thank the House for what has been said, and join with the Noble Lord in hoping that the farming community will heartily co-operate in making this Measure a success. The sooner it comes into operation, the better it will be for the stock of this country. I might, with the permission of the House, make a statement which was to have been made to-day in answer to a Question.