HC Deb 15 July 1931 vol 255 cc715-34
The CHAIRMAN

The next Amendment is to leave out the word "eight" and to insert instead thereof the word "nine." There are a number of Amendments on the Paper which are variations of this Amendment, and they must be discussed together on this Amendment.

Miss BONDFIELD

I beg to move, in page 3, line 11, to leave out the word "eight," and to insert instead thereof the word" nine."

This is the first of a series of three Amendments, to ensure that one at least of the nine members of the committee, plus the chairman, shall be a woman. I wish to deal with these three Amendments together to save separate speeches. The second Amendment is in page 3, line 11, after the word "members," to insert the words" (of whom at least one shall be a woman)." That does not mean that there would be only one woman. I hope it will be possible for women to be appointed in consultation on other sections of the committee, but this is to ensure that there shall be at least one woman on the committee.

Mr. MAXTON

There is an Amendment standing in my name providing that the number shall be extended to 12 so as to secure women a representation of three. Three seems to be an appropriate number for the Trades Union Congress and the employers' representatives, and we wish it to be adopted for the women representatives. I do not wish to argue the matter at length, but the addition of one woman seems to me a very miserable recognition of woman's place in public and industrial life, and a very poor recognition of the effect of the operation of this Bill when it becomes law upon women generally. I do not want to discuss the Amendment at all. It does seem to me to be a matter on which we ought to urge the Minister to consider whether she could not, as a woman, accept this Amendment for a more generous allowance in the way of representation for women.

Miss LEE

There are three Amendments on the Order Paper, all rather similar but not quite alike. They are all similar in that they want women's representation to be assured on the committee. The one to which my name is attached asks for the addition of three women. An Amendment from another part of this Committee asks for two women. The Minister's Amendment says one. I do not think we ought to have undue discussion or controversy over the exact number if we can come to an accommodation on this point. [Interruption.] Why not? I hope hon. Members realise that when we put forward these Amendments we are doing so with a very serious purpose. I believe hon. Members are aware that the largest class affected by this Bill will be women. The actual number, we are assured by the Minister, will be very small, but there will be large classes of women in various parts of the country who will be affected, and the knowledge required in the Advisory Committee will be knowledge of women's special work, and not only knowledge of the work that women are doing in factories and in industries. It will concern knowledge of domestic arrangements and the responsibility of the married woman, qualified or unqualified.

I suggest that there is a very fair and reasonable case for women's representation on the committee, and I suggest that the Minister might consider giving us two representatives instead of three. It is obvious that there has been no consultation on this point, which is proof that there has been a desire in various parts of the House that there should be considerable, and, if possible, adequate women's representation. I notice that the hon. Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) is anxious to speak. I would like to tell her that if we get an accommodation from the Minister, I shall ask my colleagues to agree to the figure of two.

Miss RATHBONE

I should very much welcome a larger guarantee of representation of women's interests than two, for the reason which the last speaker has given, that this Bill will touch women much more than men, not only in the category of married women, but under other categories, as short-time workers and seasonal workers. Nevertheless, we have not found the right hon. Lady in a mood to make great concessions, and I suppose we must be thankful for small mercies. I do feel grateful to her that she has made this concession, and that we are sure of at least one woman on the Advisory Committee. I have put down an Amendment suggesting that two women should be appointed. There is also a suggestion that they should be nominated by the Standing Joint Committee of Industrial Women's Organisations. I do not propose to press that case, because I understand that the nomination would not be welcomed by the bodies concerned. The body's own account of its claim is that it represents the whole of the organised working women in the country, whether in the political, industrial or labour market, or the co-operative organisation. What could be more suitable? As it includes representatives of co-operative women, it seems the ideal body for the purpose. I thank the Minister for what she has done; if she could extend her favours to make the representation into two, I should be still more grateful.

Mr. BROCKWAY

On a point of Order. Further on the Order Paper there is an Amendment to increase the number of representatives of the Trades Union Congress to seven, of which three would be insured persons who have been unemployed for a substantial period, more than 12 months preceding their appointment. If the Amendment for the increase of the members of the Advisory Committee to 12, is defeated, I suppose that that Amendment would fall. Therefore, I want to put it to you, as to whether we ought not to argue the case for that subsequent Amendment as it is a consequential Amendment, upon the Amendment which is now before the Committee?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I do not mind allowing a very short discussion on that point, but hon. Members must understand that, in that case, discussion on the subsequent Amendment will not take place.

Mr. BROCKWAY

I think I follow, and I will try and interpret, what you said. If we have a discussion now on the increase of trade union representatives, including three unemployed persons, you will not desire that there should be a further discussion upon that subject, when the Clause as a whole comes to be discussed?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That was what I said. We cannot have two separate discussions on the same matter.

Mr. WISE

On that point of Order. Might I ask how we can at the same time discuss the question of women, which is a question of an entirely different principle from that involved in the trade union representation. It seems to me that it will lead to impossible confusion, if we attempt to discuss two entirely dissimilar and independent propositions at once.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I am entirely in the hands of the Committee and unless there is agreement we must keep to the Amendment before the Committee and discuss the second Amendment if and when it is called.

Mr. MAXTON

We are dealing with the number, and the point actually before us is as to the number of persons that shall constitute a committee. We were not discussing it at the moment, though it has been imported into the question. There are other Amendments on the Paper that seek a larger increase in the committee, for other reasons. The point that we are raising now is the discussion of the principle of an increased number of the committee, but how can we discuss the question of including the later Amendment on the subject of Trades Union Congress representation in order to include unemployed men?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The only Amendment which we propose to call is the one standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Leyton (Mr. Brockway), I consented to call this Amendment in order to include it in the present discussion.

Mr. BROCKWAY

That was exactly the point that I had in mind. Obviously, if the figure 12 is now defeated, the later Amendment, which refers to an increase of Trades Union Congress membership to include an unemployed man, will be out of order. I suggest that in debating whether the Committee should be increased to 12, we are also entitled to argue not only that we desire that it should be increased to 12, but the point that we want three women representatives.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

To save time, I am willing that the Committee should discuss the whole question now, and, having had that discussion, there can be no subsequent discussion on the further Amendments on this question.

Mr. BROCKWAY

There are two reasons why we urge that the Advisory Committee should be increased. In the first place, it has been clear from the previous discussions that the duties of the committee are of an exceedingly complex character. They are to deal with regulations which not only refer to four or five distinct classes, but they are also to deal with regulations which will vary according to specified areas in the country. We suggest that, if you are going to have a committee adequate to deal with all those big and complicated problems, it is necessary that that committee should be increased from nine to 12. That is the first point which we put forward in urging that there should be an increase in the committee.

The second point which we urge very strongly upon the Committee and particularly those who sit on this side, is that, if the committee remains one of nine, with the kind of representation which it has at present, the working class representation on that committee will be in a minority. The working class representation on a committee of nine will be only three. In addition to that, there will be three representatives of the Confederation of Employers, who will entirely balance the three representa- tives of the Trades Union Congress. They will be supplemented by a representative of the Treasury, a representative of the Ministry of Labour, and an independent chairman. Our experience both of the Treasury and of the Ministry of Labour does not encourage us to take the view that, even under a Labour Administration, those representatives will be sympathetic to the point of view of the working class, and our experience of independent chairmen over a large number of inquiries, committees, and commissions does not lead us to believe that the independent chairman would be sympathetic to the working class. If that is true, while we have a Labour Administration, if that Labour Administration became transformed into a Conservative Administration as a result of a General Election, the weight against the working class representation on this committee would be absolutely overwhelming.

We were very glad earlier in the Debate to hear one or two concessions which the Minister of Labour offered. One was a concession that there should be a time limit. I was not in the House at the time, but I understand the time limit suggested was two years. Even before those two years are ended, there is a very grave danger that there may be a Conservative Government on the Front Bench and that a Conservative Government will control the appointment of the representatives of the Treasury and the Ministry of Labour, and of the independent chairman, because these appointments on the advisory committee can be terminated at very short notice by the Minister responsible. In such circumstances, this committee would be absolutely overweighted against the working class. When one realises the tremendous power which this committee has, how it is to issue reports on which regulations can be based dealing with married women, short-time workers and seasonal workers, controlling their conditions of benefit, it becomes amazing that a Labour Government supported by Labour Members should accept an advisory committee of this character. Because of that, we are proposing that at least three members of the committee should be women and, in addition, we are suggesting that the number of Trades Union Congress representatives should be increased to seven. Of those seven, we urge that three should actually be unemployed persons or at least be insured persons who have been unemployed for a substantial period during the 12 months preceding their appointment.

The case for that is self-evident. This Bill, the committee reports, the regulations which depend upon those reports, will seriously affect the conditions of the unemployed themselves and no one has a greater right to be represented upon this committee than those unemployed persons who will be so seriously affected in that way. I sometimes feel that even among those who are Socialists, there is a tendency to regard the unemployed person as a kind of civil outcast in the community not entitled to a representative on the committee which deals with his problems in the way this committee does. We urge very strongly that any committee, which is going to control the conditions of benefit of so many unemployed persons, should have upon it at least three persons who have been unemployed for a substantial period during the preceding 12 months. If we had those representatives on the committee, appointed by the Trades Union Congress and representing the actual experience of unemployment, and if the number of the representatives of the Trades Union Congress itself were increased to seven, then we would have the knowledge that the Advisory Committee which was going to determine the problems of the unemployed would be looking at the problems from the point of view of the unemployed and of the working class. We do not regard the unemployed persons as unemployed because of individual faults; we regard them as victims of society, and society owes them a duty of seeing that they are represented, and that they are treated generously by the community which has denied them work. I, therefore, urge very strongly that we should increase the number of the committee to 12 when it cornea to a vote, so that there may be better representation of the working class, of the Trades Union Congress and of the unemployed persons concerned.

Miss BONDFIELD

If I may, I will sum up the points raised by the previous speakers, and will point out that in Subsection (6) arrangements are made by which this Advisory Committee is entitled to refer questions for consideration and advice. It is intended, quite definitely, that a very large number of persons should be brought into consultation in connection with the various industries affected, and their particular difficulties in regard to the cases that require to be reviewed. That means that there will be a much larger number of women than merely one or two in consultation on these questions and, of course, a much larger number of men. I cannot accept the suggestion that a member or members of the committee should he unemployed. That seems to suggest that unemployment is an occupation.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The right hon. Lady is discussing an Amendment which is not before us and one which I do not propose to call.

Miss BONDFIELD

I beg your pardon; I understood that you were allowing it. As to the numbers of the committee, it is because I have made arrangements for that wide consultation in connection with Sub-section (6) that I must adhere to the numbers I am suggesting, and ask the Committee to reject the other Amendments.

Mr. BECKETT

I want to ask your advice on this matter. It seems to me that it would be much more to the convenience of the Committee if we could decide this question of numbers after we had made up our minds as to the personnel of the committee. Could you offer us any advice as to whether this could be left over until the Amendments of hon. Members in different parts of the Committee dealing with the personnel have been dealt with? Then, having settled the personnel of the Committee, we could decide the number.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

No, that could not be done. The Amendments must be taken in the order they appear on the Order Paper.

Mr. BECKETT

I accept your Ruling, because you know much better than I do what is possible in the way of procedure. Nobody on the Committee will deny that it will make it necessary for Members of the Committee to consider this matter in a very careful way before they come to their decision. A new and excellent idea has either occurred to the Minister, or has been suggested to her by some of her lady colleagues of the House. I was hoping one or two of the suggestions we had to bring before her would receive as considerate attention, and would have commended themselves as much as the ones she has already accepted. If the Committee decides to restrict membership to nine, we are running a risk, which I do not think we wish to do, of depriving the unemployed of a considerable amount of wise counsel and genuine protection which the committee could afford. Almost the whole of the time the Committee has been discussing this Bill I have noticed in all quarters of the Committee, at any rate on this side, the very grave concern there has been as to what the effect of this Bill is going to be. On Clause after Clause loyal supporters of the Government have deliberately abstained from voting.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

The hon. Gentleman is indulging in general discussion; he must keep to the Question before us.

Mr. BECKETT

I am sorry. The Amendment could give Members an opportunity of showing in a quite harmless way their concern. It could not affect the Government Bill or affect the

Division No. 429.] AYES. [8.38 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Gould, F. McEntee, V. L.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) McKinlay, A.
Alpass, J. H. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton)
Ammon, Charles George Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Manning, E. L.
Arnott, John Groves, Thomas E. Mansfield, W.
Attlee, Clement Richard Grundy, Thomas W. Marshall, Fred
Barr, James Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Mathers, George
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Haycock, A. W. Mills, J. E.
Benson, G. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Montague, Frederick
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Mort, D. L.
Bowen, J. W. Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Murnin, Hugh
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brothers, M. Herriotts, J. Palin, John Henry.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Paling, Wilfrid
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Hollins, A. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Burgess, F. G. Isaacs, George Phillips, Dr. Marion
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) John, William (Rhondda, West) Potts, John S.
Charleton, H. C. Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas Price, M. P.
Clarke, J. S. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Quibell, D. J. K.
Cluse, W. S. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Compton, Joseph Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Rathbone, Eleanor
Daggar, George Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Law, Albert (Bolfon) Ritson, J.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Law, A. (Rossendale) Romeril, H. G.
Dukes, C. Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Ede, James Chuter Lawson, John James Rowson, Guy
Edmunds, J. E. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sanders, W. S.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Leonard, W. Sawyer, G. F.
Freeman, Peter Lewis, T. (Southampton) Scurr, John
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lindley, Fred W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Logan, David Gilbert Sherwood, G. H.
Gibbins, Joseph Longbottom, A. W. Shield, George William
Gill, T. H. Lunn, William Shillaker, J. F.
Glassey, A. E. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Shinwell, E.
Gossling, A. G. McElwee, A. Simmons, C. J.

prestige of the Minister of Labour if the representation is increased by three. If we increase it from eight to 12, we have an opportunity of bringing to the committee more ladies and gentlemen nominated by organisations like the Cooperative Union and the Trades Union Congress. Much could be done by this harmless device. By putting 12 in the place of the original eight we take power even from the Minister herself. If her Departmental work is so great that her vigilance is relaxed, they will take all care from her and give what every Member on that side of the Committee desired—adequate protection for the people whom it was their special duty to safeguard. If the hon. Members on the Government side of the House do not do so, there are no other Members who will. I hope the Minister will give us this Amendment.

Miss BONDFIELD rose in her place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 137; Noes, 13.

Sinkinson, George Sutton, J. E. Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Sitch, Charles H. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Tinker, John Joseph Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Smith, Rennie (Penistone) Tout, W. J. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Vaughan, David Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Viant, S. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Sorensen, R. Wellock, Wilfred
Stamford, Thomas W. Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Strauss, G. H. Westwood, Joseph Mr. Hayes and Mr. Thurtle.
Sullivan, J. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
NOES.
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Stephen, Campbell
Brockway, A. Fenner Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wise, E. F.
Buchanan, G. Maxton, James
Horrabin, J. F. Sandham, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Beckett and Mt. Kinley.

Question, "That the word 'eight' stand part of the Clause," put accordingly, and negatived.

Division No. 430.] AVES. [8.45 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Harriotts, J. Ritson, J.
Alpass, J. H. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Romeril, H. G.
Ammon, Charles George Hollins, A. Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Arnott, John Isaacs, George Rowson, Guy
Attlee, Clement Richard John, William (Rhondda, West) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Barr, James Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas Sanders, W. S.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Sawyer, G. F.
Benson, G. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Scurr, John
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Bowen, J. W. Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Sherwood, G. H.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Law, Albert (Bolton) Shield, George William
Brothers, M. Law, A. (Rossendale) Shillaker, J. F.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Shinwell, E.
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Lawson, John James Simmons, C. J.
Burgess, F. G. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Sinkinson, George
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sitch, Charles H.
Charleton, H. C. Leonard, W. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Clarke, J. S. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Cluse, W. S. Lindley, Fred W. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Compton, Joseph Logan, David Gilbert Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Daggar, George Longbottom, A. W. Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Lunn, William Sorensen, R.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Stamford, Thomas W.
Dukes, C. McElwee, A. Strauss, G. R.
Ede, James Chuter McEntee, V. L. Sullivan, J.
Edmunds, J. E. McKinlay, A. Sutton, J. E.
Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Manning, E. L. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Freeman, Peter Mansfield, W. Tinker, John Joseph
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Markham, S. F. Tout, W. J.
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Marshall, Fred Vaughan, David
Gibbins, Joseph Mathers, George Viant, S. P.
Gill, T. H. Mills, J. E. Wellock, Wilfred
Glassey, A. E. Montague, Frederick Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Gossling, A. G. Mort, D. L. Westwood, Joseph
Gould, F. Murnin, Hugh Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Groves, Thomas E. Paling, Wilfrid Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Grundy, Thomas W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Phillips, Dr. Marion Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Haycock, A. W. Potts, John S. Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Price, M. P. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Quibell, D. J. K.
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Hayes and Mr. Thurtle.
NOES.
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Stephen, Campbell
Brockway, A. Fenner Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wise, E. F.
Buchanan, G. Maxton, James
Horrabin, J. F. Sandham, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Beckett and Mr. Kinley.

Question put, "That the word 'nine' be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 136; Noes. 13.

Further Amendments made: In page 3, line 11, after the word "members," insert the words "(of whom at least one shall be a woman)."

In page 3, line 15, leave out the word "eight," and insert instead thereof the word "nine."—[Miss Bondfield.]

Mr. BROCKWAY

I beg to move, in page 3, line 18, to leave out from the beginning to the word "and," in line 19, and to insert instead thereof the words: representatives of employers of whom two shall be appointed after consultation with the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations and one after consultation with the Co-operative Union. This will be the last Amendment on which I shall be speaking, and perhaps the Committee will allow me to express our appreciation of the way in which the very long sitting of the Committee has been conducted. I say that quite sincerely, and I believe that those Members who have sat through previous all night sittings will agree with me in saying that there has been more reasoned argument on this occasion than on other occasions. I want particularly to say to the Minister of Labour that we have adopted this attitude because we felt that this Bill was bad for the working classes, and that there was no antagonism towards her personally. This is a very reasonable Amendment which I am moving, and it suggests that one of the three employers' representatives upon the Advisory Committee should be appointed after consultation with the Co-operative Union. I need not remind Members of the importance of the Co-operative movement, and I hope we shall get a favourable answer from the Minister. This is a proposal which ought to have the support of everyone who realises the importance of the Co-operative movement.

Miss BONDFIELD

I am very sorry not to be able to meet the wishes of my hon. Friend. The Co-operative Union is not a body like the Confederation of Employers' Organisations. It is a political and educational body, and is represented very largely by consumers, and, therefore, it would not be the proper body to consult in a matter of this kind. For this reason, I cannot accept the Amendment.

9.0 a.m.

Mr. BUCHANAN

In view of the fact that the Co-operative Union is not suitable, would the right hon. Lady take instead the joint body of the English and Scottish Wholesale Co-operative Societies which are both manufacturers and distributors. I think my hon. Friend would gladly consent to such an alteration in his Amendment. The Government have accepted nominations from these societies before, and I understand that Sir Thomas Allen was the representative of the cooperative societies on the Macmillan Committee. All we ask is that there should be a representative of this movement on this Committee. If you appoint a co-operator, to that extent you balance the representation. As it is now, we feel that the balance is over weighted against the working class. People who advocate the present representation say that it must be representative of all three parties. It must be representative of employers and workpeople and of the community. We say that in evitably that means loading the dice against the working-class population, and we seek to redress the balance by approaching the only body of which we know, large employers that share our Labour views, in order to secure that Labour representation shall be much more equitable than it is proposed to be. In these matters, the co-operative movement can bring to bear a great deal of special experience. In local and area advisory committees, the co-operative (movement always receives representation from the employés' side. We shall only ask for representation for the co-operative movement; we do not care what the title of the organisation is, provided that we get the right of the co-operative movement to representation.

Mr. WISE

I would like to remind the right hon. Lady that her Department approves the principle of appointing representatives of the co-operative movement on the various trade boards, such as the trade board for the distributing trade and for a number of other trades. Perhaps she will tell us which co-operative body she prefers in regard to the appointment of persons to trade boards. We suggest that she consult the same body for those whom she will appoint to the Advisory Committee.

Miss BONDFIELD

It is a misunderstanding of the method of the trade board. You do not consult any central body in those matters.

Mr. WISE

Will the right hon. Lady adopt the same principle in the matter of co-operative representation for this purpose?

Miss BONDFIELD

No. Because these are representatives of two separate organisations, that are appropriate for the position.

Mr. STEPHEN

I think it is a very unsatisfactory answer that we have just had from the Minister of Labour.

Mr. HAYCOCK

At half-past nine in the morning.

Mr. STEPHEN

I hope the hon. Member will wait a little.

Mr. HAYCOCK

And I only hope he will go to sleep.

Mr. STEPHEN

At the right time I will do so. At the present time, I will look after the interests of the unemployed people in my constituency and in the constituency of the hon. Member who interrupted. It will be obvious to many hon. Members, that a great organisation like the co-operative movement with so many employés, ought to be sure of a representation on the body concerned with the working of the Unemployment Insurance scheme. I am surprised that hon. Members who are supposed to represent the co-operative movement are not insisting that the co-operative organisation should have such a representation.

Mr. B. GARDNER

Has the Cooperative Union asked for representation?

Division No. 431.] AYES. [9.10 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Clarke, J. S. Gould, F.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Cluse, W. S. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Alpass, J. H. Compton, Joseph Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Ammon, Charles George Daggar, George Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)
Arnott, John Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Groves, Thomas E.
Attlee, Clement Richard Denman, Hon. R. D. Grundy, Thomas W.
Barr, James Dukes, C. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Ede, James Chuter Haycock, A. W.
Benson, G. Edmunds, J. E. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.)
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty) Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Bowen, J. W. Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Freeman, Peter Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield)
Brothers, M. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Herriotts, J.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentwerth)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Gibbins, Joseph Hirst, W. (Bradford, South)
Burgess, F. G. Gill, T. H. Hollins, A.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Glassey, A. E. Isaacs, George
Charleton, H. C. Gossling, A. G. John, William (Rhondda, West)
Mr. STEPHEN

I am not a member of the Co-operative Union. My hon. Friend the Member for Gorbals (Mr. Buchanan) reminds me that the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations has not asked, and I do not know that the Treasury has asked, for representation. Nevertheless, representation is being given to those interests. This Measure will involve so many great Departments in the working of the Unemployment Insurance Act, that to leave out the greatest organisation representing the consumers in this country is a most ridiculuous way of handling this question. The innovations that have been made in the system of Unemployment Insurance show that it is important that organisations representing working-class interests should have as much say as possible in the working out of the new position. The Minister herself is anxious to see developing out of this a greater association of employers' and workpeople's organisations, in connection with unemployment insurance. If that be so, does the Minister of Labour, when she makes that statement with regard to the closer identification of the employers and workpeople who are associated in a contribution to the Unemployment Insurance scheme, think that it is right to neglect so great a body of employers as the co-operative movement? I hope the Minister of Labour will see her way to reconsider her decision.

Miss BONDFIELD rose in her place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 13.

Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Mort, D. L. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Murnin, Hugh Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Palin, John Henry Sorensen, R.
Law, Albert (Bolton) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Stamford, Thomas W.
Law, A. (Rossendale) Phillips, Dr. Marion Strauss, G. R.
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Potts, John S. Sullivan, J.
Lawson, John James Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Sutton, J. E.
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Thorns, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Ritson, J. Thurtle, Ernest
Leonard, W. Romeril, H. G. Tinker, John Joseph
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Tout, W. J.
Lindley, Fred W. Rowson, Guy Vaughan, David
Longbottom, A. W. Salter, Dr. Alfred Viant, S. P.
Lunn, William Sanders, W. S. Wellock, Wilfred
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sawyer, G. F. Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
McElwee, A. Scurr, John Westwood, Joseph
McEntee, V. L. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston) Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
McKinlay, A. Sherwood, G. H. Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Shield, George William Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Manning, E. L. Shillaker, J. F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Mansfield, W. Shinwell, E. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Markham, S. F. Simmons, C. J. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Marshall, Fred Sinkinson, George Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Mathers, George Sitch, Charles H. Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)
Mills, J. E. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Montague, Frederick Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Paling and Mr. Hayes.
NOES.
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Stephen, Campbell
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Brockway, A. Fenner Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wise, E. F.
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Maxton, James
Horrabin, J. F. Sandham, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Kinley and Mr. Buchanan.

Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

Division No. 432.] AYES. [9.18 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Haycock, A. W. Mort, D. L.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hayes, John Henry Murnin, Hugh
Alpass, J. H. Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Ammon, Charles George Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Palin, John Henry
Arnott, John Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Paling, Wilfrid
Attlee, Clement Richard Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Barr, James Herriotts, J. Phillips, Dr. Marion
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Potts, John S.
Benson, G. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Hollins, A. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Bowen, J. W. Isaacs, George Ritson, J.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. John, William (Rhondda, West) Romeril, H. G.
Brothers, M. Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Rowson, Guy
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Kelly, W. T. Salter, Dr. Alfred
Burgess, F. G. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Sanders, W. S.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S.W.) Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Sawyer, G. F.
Clarke, J. S. Law, Albert (Bolton) Scurr, John
Cluse, W. S. Law, A. (Rossendale) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Compton, Joseph Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Sherwood, G. H.
Daggar, George Lawson, John James Shield, George William
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Shillaker, J. F.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Shinwell, E.
Dukes, C. Leonard, W. Simmons, C. J.
Ede, James Chuter Lewis, T. (Southampton) Sinkinson, George
Edmunds, J. E. Lindley, Fred W. Sitch, Charles H.
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Longbottom, A. W. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Freeman, Peter Lunn, William Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) McElwee, A. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Gibbins, Joseph McEntee, V. L. Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Gill, T. H. McKinlay, A. Sorensen, R.
Glassey, A. E. Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Stamford, Thomas W.
Gossling, A. G. Manning, E. L. Strauss, G. R.
Gould, F. Mansfield, W Sullivan, J.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Markham, S. F. Sutton, J. E.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Marshall, Fred Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plalstow)
Groves, Thomas E. Mathers, George Thurtle, Ernest
Grundy, Thomas W. Mills, J. E. Tinker, John Joseph
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Montague, Frederick Tout, W. J.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 13.

Vaughan, David Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Viant, S. P. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Wellock, Wilfred Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Williams, T. (York, Don Valley) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Charleton.
Westwood, Joseph Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Wilson, J. (Oldham)
NOES.
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Stephen, Campbell
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Brockway, A. Fenner Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wise, E. F.
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Maxton, James
Horrabin, J. F. Sandham, E. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Kinley.

Miss BONDFIELD rose in her place, and claimed, "That the Question, 'That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,' be now put."

Division No. 433.] AYES. [9.27 a.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Herriotts, J. Rosbatham, D. S. T.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Rowson, Guy
Alpass, J. H. Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Ammon, Charles George Hollins, A. Sanders, W. S.
Arnott, John Isaacs, George Sawyer, G. F.
Attlee, Clement Richard John, William (Rhondda, West) Scurr, John
Barr, James Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Sherwood, G. H.
Benton, G. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Shield, George William
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Shillaker, J. F.
Bowen, J. W. Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Shinwell, E.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Law, Albert (Bolton) Simmons, C. J.
Brothers, M. Law, A. (Rossendale) Sinkinson, George
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Sitch, Charles H.
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Lawson, John James Smith, Ben (Bennondsey, Rotherhithe)
Burgess, F. G. Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Clarke, J. S. Leonard, W. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Cluse, W. S. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Compton, Joseph Lindley, Fred W. Sorenson, R.
Daggar, George Longbottom, A. W. Stamford, Thomas W.
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Lunn, William Strauss, G. R.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Sullivan, J.
Dukes, C. McElwee, A. Sutton, J. E.
Ede, James Chuter McEntee, V. L. Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Edmunds, J. E. McKinlay, A Thurtle, Ernest
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Manning, E. L. Tinker, John Joseph
Freeman, Peter Mansfield, W. Tout, W. J.
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Markham, S. F. Vaughan, David
Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.) Marshall, Fred Viant, S. P.
Gibbins, Joseph Mathers, George Wellock, Wilfred
Gill, T. H. Mills, J. E. Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Glassey, A. E. Montague, Frederick Westwood, Joseph
Gossling, A. G. Mort, D. L. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Gould, F. Murnin, Hugh Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Newman, Sir R. H. T. D. L. (Exeter) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Palin, John Henry Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Groves, Thomas E. Paling, Wilfrid Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Grundy, Thomas W. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Perry, S. F. Wilson, J. (Oldham)
Haycock, A. W. Phillips, Dr. Marion Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Hayes, John Henry Potts, John S.
Henderson, Arthur, Junr, (Cardiff, S.) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. Charleton.
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Ritson, J.
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Romeril, H. G.
NOES.
Beckett, John (Camberwell, Peckham) Kirkwood, D. Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Wise, E. F.
Brockway, A. Fenner Maxton, James
Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Owen, H. F. (Hereford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Horrabin, J. F. Sandham, E. Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Kinley.
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Stephen, Campbell

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 133; Noes, 14.