PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL. (Hansard, 13 July 1931)

§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
Hon. Members have no doubt looked at this Bill and are aware of the principal contents of it. The usual practice in these Bills is followed, and the amount I am asking for is £30,000,000. [Interruption.]

§ Mr. CAMPBELL
Is that all?

§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE
The hon. Member knows perfectly well that this is a Bill which is customary and that it follows the usual precedent. The control of this Fund is in the hands of the Public Works Loans Commissioners. I do not think I need describe the Bill further.

§ Mr. ARTHUR MICHAEL SAMUEL
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury says that he does not think he need take up the time of the House to explain this Bill. A more cynical form of disrespect for Parliament I have never heard. [Interruption.] This is a Bill which the Financial Secretary thinks will take the House only sixty seconds to consider. I have material enough to discuss the Bill for three-quarters of an hour. I do not intend to do so at one o'clock in the morning. The Financial Secretary will remember that when the similar Bill came up last year we spent several hours debating it. He sits there and says in a breath with a smile on his face that it is all common form. It is not common form, and I make my protest. I therefore ask that when we come to the next stage of this Bill the Patronage Secretary will allow it to be put down at a proper hour, because there are certain things which we want to know and to have discussed.

§ Mr. SCOTT
I want to express, on behalf of the Harbour Trustees of Stone-haven—theirs is the first loan to be remitted in this Bill—their appreciation of what the Government are proposing to do. I feel that I owe some apology to various Government Departments for the way I have insisted on their considering this debt, which has burdened the harbour trustees for so long. While it is the balance of a non-guaranteed 202 loan of £7,000, the amount remitted in the Bill being £6,653, the Financial Secretary will no doubt be aware that the real amount he is remitting, including interest, the total debt of these trustees, is nearer £12,000 than £6,000. He will appreciate the relief that this means to these trustees, and I wish to thank him.

§ Sir ROBERT HAMILTON
May I be allowed very shortly to add my thanks for the inclusion of the second item in this Bill? I am sure it is a matter over which I have given the Secretary of State for Scotland some trouble, and I thank him for having got this small item into the Bill. The unfortunate undertaking, when it started, hoped to be a prosperous one, but depending on the uncertain return from the herring fishing, it fell upon evil days and into the condition in which it was quite unable to meet its obligations. Therefore, the trustees are receiving the aid in this Bill.

§ Mr. SMITHERS
I rise to ask one question. I want to know whether this £30,000,000 is new money or whether the Bill is only to give powers to the Local Government Commissioners to turn over money that they have already got. If it is new money, I want to enter a protest. The condition of the country today seems to me highly dangerous for asking for these powers.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWREMCE
With the leave of the House, I will do my best to answer the hon. Gentleman. Of the Bill introduced last year a considerable balance is still outstanding. I think about £15,000,000, but that ceases to be effective with the passage of the new Act. This Bill provides for a possible amount of £30,000,000, but that includes any moneys which may be repaid out of the existing loans during the current year. It is anticipated that something like £8,000,000 will be repaid, and to that extent the whole of that £30,000,000 will not be new money. Very possibly the whole of the £30,000,000 will not be used, as was the case in the previous year.

§ Lord EUSTACE PERCY
A protest was made at the hour at which we have taken this Bill and the Financial Secretary has not deigned to give any reply to that protest. He introduced the Bill by saying it was a normal and ordinary 203 Bill, just £30,000,000, which the House of Commons has always passed in past years. He knows, as a matter of fact, that we have not passed this Bill automatically and that we have not taken the Second Reading at this hour of the night. I ask the House to consider how it likes the country to see it at this hour not very burdened with a sense of gravity. [Interruption.] The interruptions are quite characteristic. This is the atmosphere in which we are discussing an addition of £30,000,000 to our Debt, and hon. Members opposite think it a sufficient reply to say that the benches behind me are empty. I shall not pause to discuss whether the benches should be empty or filled, but it is a fact that the House is half empty and quite unfit to discuss the matter. [Interruption.] The House is showing itself perfectly incapable of discussing this matter with a sense of gravity. That is always the case when we have late sittings, I never see hon. Members opposite wish to discuss any subject, certainly not a serious subject. That is the invariable judgment of anyone who sees the House at this time of the evening.
This is the atmosphere in which the Government think it dignified to introduce a proposal of this kind. Let us remember that this Bill raises one of the gravest questions of the Government's whole policy. It raises that part of the Government's policy on which the Government are most vulnerable—and that is saying a good deal. The whole of their public works policy from the beginning of their administration, in spite of their prophecies, has been a ghastly and unrelieved failure, and it is partly to avoid discussion of that issue that the Government bring forward the Measure at this hour of the evening and refuse with an extraordinary display of discourtesy to respond to a very mild request made from this side that the next stage of the Bill should be put down at a reasonable hour. May I ask, Mr. Speaker, while registering my protest, which other Members have also felt justified in making, that that question should be answered, and may I appeal to the Government to see that an opportunity is given to debate the question of their 204 public works policy on the latter stages of this Bill.

§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE
I will certainly respond to the question put to me by the Noble Lord. I hope we shall endeavour to bring the later stage of this proposal forward at a time which will enable us to have a discussion. I am sorry it has not been possible to-night. This has been frequently done in previous Parliaments, but we shall endeavour to discuss the later stages at an early hour. I should like to say this. I think the Noble Lord knows quite well that this is not the whole policy of the Government with regard to finance. These matters are almost exclusively in the hands of the Public Works Loan Commissioners and this has been a common policy with the Government for a great number of years. I do not think it involves any new departure which demands long Debate. I shall endeavour, so far as is in my power, to see that we have an opportunity for debate.