HC Deb 13 July 1931 vol 255 cc41-4
Major MUIRHEAD

I beg to move, in page 4, line 7, after the word "scheme," to insert the words, "except a substitutional scheme."

As I explained in moving the first of this series of Amendments when the Bill was before the House on the last occasion, the creation of a substitutional scheme is to be treated on the same lines as the making of an amendment to an existing scheme. The question of a poll as to whether the scheme should remain in force, therefore, does not arise.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Attlee)

This is consequential on an Amendment accepted before, and it will, be accepted by the Government.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. BLINDELL

I beg to move, in page 4, line 14, to leave out the words "voting on the poll."

Sub-section (2, a) provides for not less than two-thirds of the total registered producers voting on the poll. My suggestion is that the words "voting on the poll" should be taken out, so that all the registered producers will be taken into account and not only those voting on the poll, on the question whether a scheme shall remain in force. Some of us on these benches feel that the amount of compulsion to be applied in this Bill is very excessive. There is a previous Amendment on the Order Paper, which I presume is not to be called, which would have had the effect of increasing the percentage of the majority required for getting a scheme in force from two-thirds to three-quarters. That Amendment not having been called, some hon. Members on these benches feel that it is tremendously important to leave out these words, because the Clause, as it stands, provides that after a scheme has been put into force there shall be a poll, and that not less than two-thirds of the registered producers going to the poll shall give their assent to the scheme remain- ing in force. For two-thirds of the registered producers to be able to give assent to a scheme with such a tremendous element of compulsion in it is a small enough percentage, but the Clause says that the assent shall be that of two-thirds of those actually going to the poll.

All producers will have to be registered, or else they will be put out of business. Having registered, it may happen that some of them cannot get to the poll, or for various reasons are not sufficiently interested in the scheme to record a vote, and I submit that this being a new departure in the marketing of agricultural produce, the Minister ought to be assured that certainly two-third's of the total number of producers really desire a scheme before that scheme is forced on them. If these words were struck out, a scheme would not be prejudiced, but the Minister would have the assurance that at least two-thirds of the whole of the registered producers did really desire it. I am certain that the Minister does not desire to put a scheme into operation unless it has a great volume of approval behind it. That volume of approval will be obtained by way of this poll, and, as one-third of the producers in any case will be forced into the scheme, I suggest that the Minister might give way with regard to these words and insist that two-thirds of the total of registered producers shall be in favour of a scheme before it is allowed to remain in force.

Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE

I beg to second the Amendment.

The MINISTER of AGRICULTURE (Dr. Addison)

I am sorry that I cannot accept this Amendment, for it would mean the absolute destruction of the scheme, though I am sure that that is not what is intended by the hon. Member. Take his own statement. He said that a producer may not be sufficiently interested to vote. Under his Amendment that inert person would be counted against the scheme. All who fail to vote would be preventing others who wish to get a scheme into operation from being able to do so. If these words were struck out of the Bill every lazy person, every person who is not interested, would automatically count against anything being done. We must have regard to the wishes of those who take the trouble to vote, and not of those who do not. In a majority of cases it will, I have no doubt, be a postcard vote, or something of that kind, and if a man is too lazy or not sufficiently interested to fill up a postcard, then I do not think he is entitled to have his views counted against those who wish to get on with a scheme. I notice that a similar Amendment to this has been put down by the hon. Member on the next paragraph. If that were adopted it would be a physical impossibility to have a successful poll, because the next paragraph requires a two-thirds majority not only of the number of producers but of the acreage, and if a number of persons do not bother to vote at all we should not know what acreage they represent. I am sure the implications of his proposal were not fully realised by the hon. Member. It would defeat the purposes of the Bill, and I must ask the House to support me in resisting the Amendment.

Colonel ASHLEY

Speaking only for myself, as this is a non-party Bill I must say that I agree with the Minister. It seems too fantastic to say that those who do not take the trouble to vote should be taken into account. In our Parliamentary and municipal elections we count only those who take the trouble to go to the poll, and, therefore, apart from whether this proposal would help this particular scheme or not, it would run counter to the principle on which we have always acted in our public life.

Amendment negatived.

Major MUIRHEAD

I beg to move, in page 4, line 30, to leave out the words "the poll aforesaid is to be taken," and to insert instead thereof the words: polls are to be taken for the purposes of this Act. Sub-section (3) says that every scheme shall provide for the manner in which the poll as to whether a scheme is to remain in force is taken. In Part II of the First Schedule it becomes necessary to adopt that procedure to polls on the question of Amendment. The effect of this Amendment will be to say straight away that every scheme has to lay down how all polls are to be taken, so that there shall be no need to adopt the procedure of one part of the Bill to another part of the Bill.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. ATTLEE

The Government agree to accept this Amendment. It is made necessary partly by the adoption of the substitutional scheme amendment, and it also applies the principle of the poll to initial polls, polls on Amendments and the rest.

Amendment agreed to.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

I beg to move, in page 6, line 8, at the end, to insert the words: (d) shall prescribe the manner in which the result of the poll is to be declared and published. I think it is advisable that the Minister should have a say in how the result of the poll shall be made known. The result might be published in only one paper, perhaps, and people might not know that the scheme was actually in force, and render themselves liable to penalties through their ignorance of that fact.

Colonel RUGGLES-BRISE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. ATTLEE

The Government agree to accept this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Dr. ADDISON

I beg to move, in page 5, line 20, at the end, to insert the words: The question whether any product is to be treated as a separate product for the purpose of this Sub-section shall be determined by the provisions of the scheme. This Amendment is necessary because we are accepting an Amendment to leave out the Fourth Schedule and that will involve a number of definitions. This Amendment is one of a number which have already been accepted.

Viscount WOLMER

I understand this Amendment is merely a consequential Amendment to the decision to leave out the Fourth Schedule, and I have no objection to offer.

Amendment agreed to.