§ Mr. ATTLEEI beg to move, in page 15, line 39, to leave out from the word "scheme" to the end of the Subsection, and to insert instead thereof the words:
Provided that (except in the case of a substitutional scheme) a loan of such amount as the Minister thinks necessary for the purpose of providing for expenses incurred in connection with the initial poll may be made without any such recommendation as aforesaid.The purpose of this Amendment is to provide for the starting of a scheme. It will be observed that the agricultural marketing facilities committee may make a loan to a board administering any scheme. But that does not really meet the point where an initial poll has to be taken. In order that a scheme may work and in order that there may be money for this preliminary, it is necessary to insert these words and so allow a loan of such amount as the Minister thinks necessary for expenses in connection with the poll, without waiting necessarily for the recommendations of the agricultural facilities committee.
§ Viscount WOLMERI certainly support the Amendment, which was made necessary by the acceptance in Committee of the Amendment which instituted the initial poll. Otherwise the agricultural facilities committee could stop any scheme at the outset, and it is not the desire, of any of us that authority of that sort should be given to the agricultural facilities committee. If the Minister is convinced that there is a case to be put before Parliament for the institution of a marketing board, and if Parliament agrees with him, then clearly the matter must go forward and funds must be available to enable the initial 128 poll to be taken. I am particularly glad that the Minister has adopted this plan, because it will enable the initial poll to be taken without its being necessary at first to pass the hat round amongst promoters of a scheme to defray the expenses. It would have been a very damping commencement to any scheme if the first thing members were asked to do was to put their hands in their pockets in order to repay the expenses of the initial poll.
In some cases the initial poll may be rather costly. In the case of a hops board or black-currant board, it would be comparatively cheap, but when you come to a thing like a potato board, or still more a milk board, where you have to circularise thousands and thousands of producers and to collect a great deal of statistical information in regard to output and produce, the expenses of the initial poll might be very heavy. I imagine that the initial poll in the case of the milk scheme might cost between £15,000 and £20,000. I do not know whether the Minister has formed any estimate, and if I am wrong perhaps he will correct me. But I imagine it would necessarily be a very expensive matter from the point of view of individual producers. Of course we must recognise that if the result of the initial poll is adverse to the scheme the whole of the money is lost. There is a provision later in the Bill by which that amount is automatically written off.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEI wish to ask two questions. I understand that the Minister hopes to get this part of the Bill into operation in a comparatively short time. How does he propose to get the money? Will it be obtained by a Supplementary Estimate or is it covered by something already passed? What 129 does the Minister mean by the words "except in the case of a substitutional scheme"? Suppose that a scheme is turned down after a year and a new scheme is started. Are there to be no loans for that new scheme? If not, how will the money be raised? We on this side are interested to find that the Government have so much money to provide loans, after we have been told of the fix that the country is in, and that credit facilities and other schemes have been making inroads on Government credit. What are the limitations, if any, on the Government, in providing large sums of money?
Let me put a concrete case. The schemes will differ in size. The Noble Lord has mentioned hops. How will the Government differentiate between the amount of money allotted to start a hops scheme and the amount allotted to start a potato or wheat scheme? Is there going to be more or less carte blanche given, or is there a limit to the amount to be spent on the poll? Is the limit to be mentioned in the scheme? There will necessarily be a good deal of preliminary advertising and printing. What is the procedure to be adopted? In the case of a scheme for, say, strawberries, it might be known beforehand what the cost will be. In other cases, such as that of poultry, no one will know beforehand how much the expense will be. I have asked questions on the subject and have been told that 4,000 farms are devoted to poultry alone. I foresee considerable difficulty in knowing exactly what are the limitations to be put in any scheme to start a poll of this kind.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Robert Young)The hon. Member is now discussing what has been passed in the Bill, and is not discussing the Amendment.
§ Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGEI have made my point.
Brigadier-General BROWNMy Noble Friend has said that he welcomes this Amendment and that it is necessary, but, as has been indicated by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage), we should be told the amount of money that the Minister will find it necessary to spend. Suppose that there were schemes on which it was thought necessary to spend 130 money for the initial poll, and the result was not satisfactory to the starting of the scheme.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThis Amendment is only concerned with the expenses incurred in connection with the initial poll.
Brigadier - General BROWNThe Amendment refers to a loan of such amount "as the Minister thinks necessary," for the purposes of the initial poll. I was querying that point and I wanted to know if something more than those words was not required, so that Parliament should be informed when the Minister thinks it necessary to incur this expense. I was giving an example of a case in which, money having been spent on an initial poll, the scheme might not be started, and the money could not then be recovered. I was only raising the question as to whether these words should not be amplified so that Parliament should know when money was being called for in order to carry out an initial poll.
§ Dr. ADDISONAs the hon. and gallant Member says, it is conceivable that there might be a case in which the initial poll would be unsuccessful. In that case no board would be brought into being and therefore there would be no organisation which could reimburse the Minister who had been sanguine enough to undertake the expense of the initial poll. He would have spent the money in a good cause, but there would be nobody from whom to recover it and I have no doubt that Ministers on that account will be very careful before they undertake expenditure on the preliminary stages of a scheme and will make certain of the prospects before there is any expense. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Louth (Lieut.-Colonel Heneage) the reason why a substitutional scheme is excepted, is because this Amendment relates to an initial poll and therefore it could not apply to a scheme which was in substitution of a pre-existing scheme. The pre-existing scheme has already passed through the initial stage and if later on, it is desired to substitute another scheme, it will then be presumed to be able to pay for its own poll.
§ Amendment agreed to.