HC Deb 02 July 1931 vol 254 cc1579-602
The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Craigie Aitchison)

I beg to move, in page 31, line 6, to leave out paragraph (a), and to insert instead thereof the words: (a) the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1922, shall be substituted for the Allotments Act, 1922, and the First Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, as originally enacted, shall be substituted for the First Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923. This is really a drafting Amendment. The first part of the Amendment substitutes the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1922, for the Allotments Act, 1922. Allotment gardens within the meaning of the Allotments Act, 1922, are mentioned in the definition of agricultural purposes in Clause 28 of the Bill, and accordingly in the Clause with which we are now dealing we have to make a corresponding provision. As regards the second part of the Amendment, the only words that call for explanation are the words "as originally enacted." The House will see that the Amendment says: the First Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1923, as originally enacted, shall be substituted for the First Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923. The reason for the insertion of these words is that at the present time there is a Small Landholders and Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Bill in the House of Lords, and if that Bill becomes law a new Schedule will be substituted for the First Schedule in the Act of 1923. The new Schedule which will be substituted will not have any effect as regards Clauses 20–27 of the First Schedule to which this Amendment refers. The reason why we have to put in the words "as originally enacted" is that the numbering of the Clauses of the new Schedule may be different from the numbering of the old Schedule, and in order to secure exact correspondence in the matter we require to put in these words.


The Lord Advocate has explained the reason for putting in the words "as originally enacted' because of a Bill at present under consideration. But I want to be clear about some aspects of this problem. The Lord Advocate knows that under the Act as originally enacted the Schedule deals with a variety of topics, some of which require, under that Act, the consent of the landlord to be carried out. In the other Measure that is under consideration, whatever the result of that may be, obviously there is going to be a considerable alteration made in the distribution of these various functions, and the responsibility for making these alterations will not in some cases be with the landlord, as in the past—though it may be in other cases—it may be with the tenant. I am not a lawyer, but I am anxious to clear this up and to find out how at is going to affect the particular and peculiar interests of the landlord on the one hand and of the tenant on the other. For all I can see the actual effect of this may be to place certain burdens, unseen and unknown, upon one or other of these individuals, and it may work out in a totally different fashion, whichever of these Acts is really adopted. This leaves in the mind of those who are concerned with this problem very grave doubts, and, in these circumstances, I hope the Lord Advocate will give some further explanation of this matter.


With the leave of the House I would say this: If the right hon. Gentleman will look at page 5 of the Bill he will find that in Clause 8, Sub-section (1), it is provided that the sale price can be computed without taking certain matters into account. Paragraph (iv) states: (iv) the value of any tillages or manure, or of any improvements specified in paragraphs (20) to (27) of the First Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings Act, 1923. The only paragraphs in the Schedule which require to be specified are paragraphs (20) to (27) of the First Schedule, but all these paragraphs in, the First Schedule relate to improvements to which the consent of the landlord, or notice to the landlord, is not required. If I just take one illustration I would say, for example, that in the case of the lining of the land the consent of the landlord is not required. The right hon. Gentleman was quite right in saying that there are several alterations being made in the Schedule in the sense that certain things are being taken from one Schedule and are being put into another Schedule, but so far as paragraphs (20) and (27) are concerned there is no alteration made at all. The matters which are dealt with in paragraphs (20) to (27) in the Schedule as it stands will be in precisely the same position when the Bill presently before the other House becomes law. The sole purpose of this Amendment is in case the numbering of a Schedule in the new Bill may be different, and accordingly we have got to identify the particular items with reference to the Schedule in the Bill as it at present stands. Beyond that there is no other alteration effected.


I understand that when the Act is finally placed on the Statute Book a person desiring to interpret this will need to have a copy of the Finance Act of this year, a copy of the Smallholders Act which superseded the 1923 Act, and also a copy of the 1923 Act which has been superseded for all other purposes except for the reference in the Finance Act of this year? The references in the Finance Act of this year are to the Act of 1923.


I think the hon. and gallant Gentleman is under a misapprehension. The effect of the Bill presently in another place will be that a new Schedule will be substituted for the Schedule in the existing 1923 Act, and as regards paragraphs (20) to (27) the position will remain precisely the same in the matter of the consent of the landlord and so on. We cannot tell whether there will be any alteration in the numbering at all as yet, and the reason why we cannot tell is that we do not know in what form the Bill may emerge from another place or what alteration may be made in this House. Accordingly, it is in order to avoid any confusion that may arise in the matter of numbering that we have had resort to this method of reference to the Schedule in the original Act. I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend that it really makes no difference to the real position.


I would ask the Lord Advocate whether there is or is not any alteration in the matter of policy, and whether this is only a technical or drafting Amendment which is entirely dependent upon the position in this House and upon the Bill which is before another place?


That is exactly the position.

Amendment agreed to.


I beg to move, in page 31, line 12, to leave out the words "(other than than dwelling houses)."

I would like to ask the Lord Advocate for some explanation of what the position of a cottage on a farm is going to be and also of the farmhouse. It is very difficult for an ordinary back-bencher to understand exactly the position we are in and to gather exactly what the cultivation value really means. The matter, of course, would be a very much simpler one if this Bill had not been rushed through by the Guillotine, because there have been various alterations made in other parts—in Clause 8—but all these alterations and Amendments were put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and were carried under the Guillotine. We had no explanation from the Front Bench opposite as to what the position really is, and, therefore, those of us who come from Scotland are left without any idea of what the position is. I would like to have some statement from the Lord Advocate in the matter. Clause 31 reads: 'Agricultural buildings' means buildings (other than dwelling houses) included in any agricultural lands and heritages. So far as I can understand that, it seems to me that in the cultivation value there is not to be taken into account the cottages on the farm or the farm houses. Therefore, I think I am perfectly justified in moving to leave out the words "(other than dwelling houses)" because surely a cottage does come within the definition of a dwelling house, and, therefore, if these words are left out of the Bill you are going to include cottages in the definition. In England I understand that cottages are included, but in Scotland they are left out. That seems to me to place Scotland at a great disadvantage. In Scotland the farmhouse is always taken as part of a farm and anybody who farms has very little use for a farm if these buildings are not included. If any part should be taken as cultivation value it should certainly be the farmhouse. I think it is rather strange that no Amendment has been moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to remedy what I understand to be the present position.


I beg to second the Amendment.


The purpose of the hon. Member in moving the Amendment is, I understand, to elicit a statement on the question whether agricultural cottages in Scotland are in the same position as in England, that is to say, whether they fall to be taken into account in estimating cultivation value for the purpose of this Bill. We intend that the position should be the same, but it is not necessary for us to make any adaptation upon the definition of agricultural buildings which appears in Clause 31. I will state the reason why. Each country has its own definition of agricultural buildings. The effect of the definition in each case is the same. Agricultural buildings in both countries excludes dwelling houses, but Clause 8 (2, b) brings in agricultural cottages for both countries for the purpose of estimating the cultivation value. Accordingly the hon. Member will see that the matter is already covered by the Amendment which has been made to Clause 28, and it is not necessary to make special provision for Scotland in this matter.


Will the Lord Advocate explain how it reads under Clause 28? This is very difficult indeed.


The definition in Clause 28 runs: 'Agricultural cottage' means, in relation to any laud, a house used as a dwelling-house of a person who is employed in agricultural operations on that land in the service of the occupier thereof and is entitled, whether as tenant or otherwise, so to use the house only while so employed. The position is that the definition of agricultural buildings applies to agricultural cottages under Clause 28 of the Bill, and that definition is the same in both countries. If the definition had not been the same, it would have been necessary to make an adaptation, but the matter is already sufficiently covered.


We are in a great difficulty here, because as the Lord Advocate has shown, we are dealing with several Amendments which have been made under the Guillotine without any discussion whatever. It shows that there really is some value in discussions. One of these Amendments made last night added the words, "or cottages." In the OFFICIAL REPORT, at the top of page 1359, will be seen the familiar paragraph: Mr. SPEAKER then proceeded successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given to that part of the Bill to be concluded-at half-past Seven of the Clock at this day's Sitting. Amendment made, in page 6, line 29, after the word 'any,' insert the words 'agricultural cottages or.'—[The Solicitor-General.] We do not know what that means, because naturally the Solicitor-General did not have a chance of explaining it to us. Several more Amendments have been made in a similar way. On page 2562 of the Order Paper there appear three Amendments in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer dealing with Clause 23: In page 28, line 32, leave out from 'farmhouse,' to 'and,' in line 36, and insert 'occupied in connection with such land as aforesaid and any agricultural cottage so occupied which is on or contiguous to that land. In page 28, line 42, after 'farmhouse,' insert 'or agricultural cottage.'

In page 29, line 2, at end, insert— 'Agricultural cottage' means, in relation to any land, "house used as a dwelling-house of a person who is employed in agricultural operations on that land in the service of the occupier thereof and is entitled, whether as tenant or otherwise, so to use the house only while so employed. Clause 28 has been amended, but not printed again and we have no knowledge of what it looks like in its amended form without writing in the Amendments for ourselves. Here, however, we come to a point of principle. The Lord Advocate's contention, as I understand it, is that Clause 28 applies both to England and to Scotland, but I fail to follow that, and I would like the Lord Advocate to direct his attention to the beginning of Clause 28. He will find it says there: In this part of the Act, except where the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them. Then follows the definition of "agricultural laud," but what is the context of this? The context of this is: which, by reason of Sub-section (2) of Section 67 of the Local Government Act, 1929. Section 67 of that Act is a purely English section. It deals with the total exemption of agricultural land and buildings from rates. As is well known, there is no total exemption of agricultural land and buildings from rates in Scotland, because the proportion of one-eighth was left on the land. Therefore, it is clear that any court which turned up Clause 28 would say "The context makes it clear that this Clause 28 is, as it purports to be, an English Clause, and to deal with the Scottish Clause we must turn to the Scottish application Clause." I cannot see that any court, looking into Clause 28, would say, "We have to take the definitions as applying to Scotland which occur in Clause 28." On the contrary they would say, "They are clearly ruled out, because Clause 28 is an English Clause, and Clause 31 is the Clause which applies the thing to Scotland." I speak as a layman, and I find this most extraordinarily difficult to follow, but the broad general argument is that Clause 28 is an English Clause and 31 is a Scottish Clause, and therefore any Amendment which has been made in Clause 28 will affect England and not Scotland and is in fact specifically excluded from application to Scotland. I beg the Lord Advocate to direct his attention to that point, and to reassure us on this side of the House.


May I deal with the point as regards the English Clauses? I agree that it is a difficult matter to follow. Let us start at the beginning, with Clause 8 at line 29 on page 6. The Amendment which was made last night inserted after the word "any" the words "agricultural cottages or." Clause 28 is a general definition Clause for the whole purpose of Part III. There is no definition of minerals in the Scottish application Clause, because it means the same in Scotland as in England. What has been done in this case is only for the purpose of giving a special definition. Take the case of agricultural land. That is also defined in Clause 28, but there is also a special definition under paragraph (b) where agricultural land has a different meaning, but the definition in Clause 28 applies to England and Scotland. For agricultural cottages there is only one definition, and that is in Clause 28 which applies to England and Scotland. Therefore, the position is covered for Scotland and England as regards agricultural cottages.


I would like the Solicitor-General to tell us what the position is in regard to farmhouses. Is that included in the definition of agricultural land in Clause 28? I know there is a separate definition for Scotland in Clause 31 (b). Therefore it would appear that in England the value of the farmhouse would be made part of the agricultural value and taken from the land value. This does not appear to be the case in Scotland. The position seems to be quite obscure in regard to the farmhouse.


During the Committee stage, the Lord Advocate promised to give the Scottish side of the question the same consideration as was to be given to the English side by the Solicitor-General. As I understood the two speeches which I heard, it is now proposed to make the Scottish side exactly the same as the English side. I am clear that under Clause 8 cottages are included, but the question arises now are dwelling-houses included. We never expected that the Report stage of this Clause would be taken at the same time as a Clause which affects the whole of Scotland in the same way as the other Clauses affecting the whole of England. I am satisfied now that the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General have made it clear to those of us who desire to understand it, that the position in Scotland is the same as in England.


I cannot say that I am in the slightest degree satisfied with the explanation which has been given by the Solicitor-General. He says, with great force, that, where you have no special Scottish definition, you are to take the definition that you find in the general Clauses; but that leaves a very difficult question for the Courts. You have a definition of an agricultural cottage in Clause 28, but, when you come to the Scottish Clause, you find that agricultural buildings mean buildings other than dwelling-houses, and I think it would be a very reasonable view for a Court to take that no Act of Parliament could have a definition in which a cottage was regarded as something different from a dwelling-house. It seems to me to be obvious that the definition of an agricultural cottage in what I may roughly call the English Clauses cannot possibly apply to Scotland, because that would involve regarding a cottage as something different from a dwelling-house; and I think that any Court would say, with regard to the definition of the buildings to be taken into account in arriving at the cultivation value, that the definitions are separate in Scotland and in England, and that we have to construe the situation in Scotland from Clause 31.

Even, however, if I am wrong about that, the matter, in principle, remains most unsatisfactory as between the agricultural situations in the two countries. In England there has been the concession that, for the first time, the agricultural subject is regarded as including the agricultural cottage. That is to say, another element has been added to the factors which are to be taken into consideration in finding the cultivation value, and that is a real concession. But what is a concession in England is, if you apply it to Scotland, not a concession, but exactly the opposite, because, on all previous occasions when it has been necessary to value an agricultural subject in Scotland, for all purposes with which valuation is concerned, the agricultural subject has included, not only the cottages, which now, ex concessu, are brought for the first time into the agricultural subject, but also the farmhouse, and that is now being taken away. Therefore, the situation remains exactly the same as far as Scotland is concerned, except that the Government think it worth while to make a special concession to England, but, in doing so, have removed one of the ordinary factors of cultivation in Scotland, namely, the element of the dwelling-house, which has always been regarded as part and parcel of the agricultural subject.

I want to bring before the Government once again the considerations that I urged during the Committee stage. In my judgment it is excessively foolish, unbusinesslike and unworkmanlike to go through the process of valuation of agricultural subjects, which, in the majority of cases, will not be followed by taxation—because it is only suburban agricultural subjects on which taxation will follow, and the vast number of farms are not within that range—when you have a perfectly ready method of finding the cultivation value, and one which is in accordance with the Scottish system of farming and with the Scottish view of what a farming unit is. You have it all ready for you in the Valuation Roll. At least 75 per cent. of the valuations are purely formal and yet, for the purpose of excluding the dwelling house from the cultivation value, you are going to throw aside and make no use of the existing valuation rolls whereas, if you include the farmhouse as part of the agricultural building, which it has been for all time and for all purposes, you need spend neither time not expense in discovering the value of all these subjects which you are not going to use.

It cuts much deeper than that. One of the most serious agricultural problems, which I do not think exists in England to anything like the same extent, is the led farm, which is cultivated in a combination of farms, where the farmhouse is not occupied by a farmer and goes derelict. If you do not include in your cultivation value the farmhouse, you load the dice in favour of the led farm. If, in every farm where the farmhouse is occupied by a cultivating farmer, the value of the farmhouse comes into the cultivation and reduces the amount of tax in the suburban farms which will be taxed, you are doing something to load the dice against the led farm and in favour of every farm unit having a farmer of its own to look after it. It is a very faulty piece of agricultural economics to increase the tendency towards led farms instead of doing, perhaps, the only good thing you could do in this Bill, tipping the balance in favour of a farmer living in each farmhouse because, if a farmer lives in the farmhouse, the value of the farmhouse is taken into consideration in the cultivation value. It is folly, at a time when efforts are being made of every sort to increase the rural population, when you have the opportunity, instead of taking the right course of helping each farm to have its own farmer, to take the wrong course and to do all you can to move the increase of the led farm a great probability. That may be regarded as a fine drawn argument, but it is neither fine drawn nor anything but extremely practical. When you have a valuation ready for you whereby you can find the value automatically, you tear it up and insist on treating the farmhouse in a way it has never been treated before.


The charm of the Solicitor-General is always very difficult to resist, but I cannot help thinking that my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) was much too easily persuaded to accept the view that the Scottish case was met by the words which have been inserted in the Bill. It is rather a deplorable thing for Scottish Members to have to hunt through a series of Clauses and Sub-sections which apply only to England to find bits that are to be selected to be applicable to Scotland. I lather revolt against it. I will, as far as I can and with such intelligence as I have, try to follow the Solicitor-General's explanation of these definitions. He tells us that under Clause 28, which is a general Clause, the agricultural cottage has been included, and that thereafter a definition of agricultural cottage is given in Clause 28, which has so much phraseology which does not apply to Scotland at all and can never apply to our Scottish system, and yet you have to pick out bits of Clause 28 which may apply to Scotland. We find that: 'agricultural cottage' means, in relation to any land, a house used as a dwelling-house, and when we come to the definition of "agricultural buildings" in the Clause applying to Scotland we find that: 'agricultural buildings' means buildings (other than dwelling-houses). That is to say, that cottages are to be excluded from the category of dwelling houses and are not to come into computation when we consider the question of cultivation value. I see a very amused expression on the face of the Solicitor-General. If indeed he thinks that by a series of such references we can find the inclusion of cottages in cases of cultivation value in Scotland, I still protest, because I say that we ought to have something in the Bill which will quite fairly apply to the case of Scotland. The one consideration which is entirely left out is the fact that according to our immemorial custom in Scotland a farmhouse has been considered part of the tenement; and this Bill for the first time in Scottish history rules it out. Why is it to he ruled out? It is getting very late and vast questions affecting the Scottish system of land tenure, which is entirely different from that of England, will be left untouched, as we are to be guillotined out of all possibility of Debate. A national system which has grown up through centuries has been treated in the House during these discussions as though it did not matter at all.

I venture to make a protest on behalf of the whole of Scotland in regard to the way in which this Measure has been treated. Never in all the history of our country has any Scottish system, as distinct from England, been treated with so much contumely by any Government. It stands to the discredit of a Socialist administration that Scotland is wholly discredited, and we are put in at the end of an English Clause which docs not apply to our system of tenure, and it makes it almost impossible for anyone to understand to what it applies. It will lead to great confusion in regard to many matters in which the Scottish system is different from that of Eng- land. I defy anyone who reads the Measure as it stands, guillotined as it is going to be in a quarter of an hour, in its application to Scotland, to make anything out of it. You never will be able to apply the processes of the Bill to Scottish law. I begin to feel that the Government never intend the Act to come into operation, because one thing is perfectly certain, namely, that when it comes to be applied it will be found that there is such a condition of confusion with regard to sections applying to Scotland that the Law Courts will not be able to interpret them.

The Solicitor-General has been very assiduous in his attention to the English Clauses and we believe that he has had a benevolent attitude towards us, but he is in complete ignorance of the Scottish system just as I am with regard to the English system. I do not profess to know the English system of land tenure. He has occasionally spoken with diffidence, but to-night he has spoken with a confidence which is completely unjustified. I do not know what has suddenly reinforced him upon the present occasion. I part from this Bill with a feeling that the whole interests of Scotland have been entirely neglected throughout the consideration of this Bill. We have a totally different system of land tenure, but what has been the amount of time we have had in which to discuss it. We were guillotined after a few hours on one day and to-night one single hour is to be sufficient to deal with the whole land system of Scotland. I make my protest. It is impossible to conduct any intelligent discussion in circumstances like these, and I leave this Bill with the conviction that you will have a revolt of Scottish opinion against it.


I desire to support the Amendment. The Solicitor-General has failed entirely to grasp the difference between the English and the Scottish system. In Scotland the farmhouse and the workmen's cottages are part of the subject let to the tenant. When he offers for the farm he offers for the dwelling-house for himself and for the cottages for the farm workers. When the cultivation value has to be returned by the owner it will be impossible for him to put a value on the farm on the assumption that there are no dwelling-houses upon it. I defy anyone, looking at the matter from a practical point of view, to say what the value is without the cottages and the farmhouse. Both these items are necessary for the work of the farm. Surely it would be far more simple and lead to a more equitable result if the farmer's house, and the cottages, which are part of the subject, were included in the farm when valued for cultivation value. If the Government will make this concession they will facilitate the operation of the Bill in Scotland, but if they do not then they will be introducing nothing but absolute chaos and uncertainty.


I wish to put a difficulty which we on these benches have with regard to this matter. In paragraphs (b) and (c) of Clause 31 agricultural land is defined, and agricultural buildings are defined in the Amendment. In Clause 28 agricultural cottages are defined. It is quite clear that the definition of agricultural cottages refers to the workers' cottages and has no reference whatever to the farm house where the farmer lives. Paragraph (c) of Clause 31, which defines agricultural buildings, says that it means buildings other than dwelling-houses included in any agricultural land and heritages. Paragraph (b) also refers to agricultural lands and heritages. Therefore we are driven back to the definition in paragraph (b) of Clause 31 which says that agricultural land means land which is shown in the valuation roll as agricultural lands and heritages. If my recollection is correct as to what the valuation rolls show, there is a letter A put opposite farms, fields and also opposite farm houses, and they are all included in the definition of lands and heritages. If the hon. and learned Gentleman would clear up that point when he replies, we should be glad.


With the leave of the House I should like to say a few words in reply. I think a good deal of the confusion has arisen from not observing that the definition of agricultural buildings in the case of England is the same as in the case of Scotland. I want to make that clear because it gets rid of the difficulty. In Clause 31 (c) you have the definition of agricultural buildings, as far as Scotland is concerned. It says: 'Agricultural buildings' means buildings (other than dwelling-houses) included in any agricultural lands and heritages. Just go back to Clause 28 for a moment. At the foot of page 28 you find this definition: 'Agricultural buildings' and 'cottage garden' have respectively the same meanings, as in the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928. When you go to the Act of 1928 you find that a dwelling house is excluded. Accordingly, the position as regards the exclusion of dwelling houses is precisely the same in Scotland as in England. Let me carry that a step further. I think the matter will be made quite plain. You go back now to Clause 8 of the Bill which deals with matters which have to be taken into account when you are computing cultivation value. Clause 8 states in language which could not be more explicit that when you are computing cultivation values you are including agricultural buildings and agricultural cottages. It is perfectly plain that for the purpose of the cultivation value of the land you include the agricultural cottage, but not the farmhouse which is the dwelling house. Accordingly, the position is that in England you exclude the dwelling house which is the farmhouse, and in Scotland you exclude the dwelling house which is the farmhouse, but in both countries, under Clause 8 you take into account the agricultural cottage. There is thus no difficulty at all, if one takes each Clause in turn and examines it. I agree it is extraordinarily difficult where you are dealing with legislation of this kind when you have to go from one part of the Bill to another and piece it all together, but I am certain that if the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillhead (Sir P. Home) will piece it together, he will find there is no dubiety, and the provisions as they stand are sufficient to bring in the agricultural cottage into the computation when you are reckoning cultivation value. On the other hand, it excludes farmhouses.




Because we are securing uniformity in this matter.




It is all very well for the right hon. Gentleman to say "Och." The right hon. Gentleman's idea of equality seems to be that Scotland should get a preference.


No, but that we should keep the system which we have always had.


I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity of getting rid of a diatribe on what is happening to the Scottish system under this Bill, but that is not the point. We are dealing with a particular Amendment. We are dealing with the suggestion that preferential treatment has been given in this matter to England and I submit to the House that there is no foundation for that suggestion and that, if hon. Members take the trouble to piece the thing together, it is quite plain that in this matter Scotland and England are in precisely the same position.


The answer to the Lord Advocate surely is that no court will ever be able to piece it together unless it has guidance from the speeches delivered in this House to-night. The Solicitor-General shakes his head but there are Members on these benches who are learned in Scottish law—as he is not—who will agree that they are no more clear on this matter now, than they were when the discussion began. I pointed out, when the hon. and gallant Member for Kelvingrove (Major Elliot) was speaking, that there was a difference in definition, as between the Local Government Act, 1929, and the Rating and Valuation (Apportionment) Act, 1928. I presume that there was a difference there, but, nevertheless, the fact is that what we want for this Clause 31, is the addition in plain language of a key, in order to tell everybody concerned what the Government really mean by this hotch-potch which is supposed to define their proposal. It is only a proof of what some of us said when the Guillotine Resolution was proposed. Whatever Measures the Guillotine may be applied to, the very last thing it ought to be applied to is a finance and taxing Measure.


If this Clause is incomprehensible to Scottish lawyers, as it is to all the Scottish lawyers here, with the possible exception of the Lord Advocate, how much more incomprehensible must it be to every Scottish layman on this side of the House. This is the second occasion on which I have to rise two minutes before the fall of the Guillotine, and on which I have been deprived by the Time-table of the opportunity of offering any criticisms, but there is one point which I would put to the Lord Advocate in the short time available. According to his reasoning which is far beyond our intellectual compass on this side, and, I think, is beyond the intellectual processes of any hon. Members in this House except the Lord Advocate himself, everything will be included in the cultivation value except the dwelling-house. We say that, quite apart from the question of parity with England that vitiates the whole principle governing these matters in Scotland as it has existed for the last 100 years. In England you will at least have the valuation role with which to start off in valuing a farm. In Scotland you will have nothing to guide you. You will have to ascertain the valuation from a completely fresh standpoint.

As the Lord Advocate knows, the dwelling-house in Scotland as far as the valuation roll is concerned has always been taken as unum quid with the farm, and in any valuation roll in Scotland the dwelling-house hitherto has always been included. Therefore, the valuation roll will be of no value whatever in this respect. In this, as in many other matters connected with the Bill, the Lord Advocate has sacrificed the old customs of Scotland as they have gone on for many years. We have been precluded by the Guillotine from discussing at any length any of these vital matters affecting Scotland, as for example the application of the Bill to the feuing system, which was only dealt with cursorily in the Committee stage. We say that the Government have treated Scotland and Scottish Members very badly; that they have attacked a system of land tenure which hitherto has commanded the admiration of the world, and the only thing we have heard from the Government in regard to it has been an attack on the whole feuing system in Scotland by the Lord Advocate unsupported by any argument.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 259; Noes, 219.

Division No. 375.] AYES. [9.48 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Edmunds, J. E.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Edwards, C. (Monmouth, Bedwellty)
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Buchanan, G. Egan, W. H.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Burgess, F. G. Foot, Isaac
Alpass, J. H. Burgin, Dr. E. L. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton)
Amnion, Charles George Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)
Angell, Sir Norman Cameron, A. G. George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke)
Arnott, John Cape, Thomas George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea)
Aske, Sir Robert Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gibbins, Joseph
Attlee, Clement Richard Chater, Daniel Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley)
Ayles, Walter Clarke, J. S. Gill, T. H.
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cluse, W. S. Gillett, George M.
Barnes, Alfred John Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Glassey, A. E.
Barr, James Cocks, Frederick Seymour Gossling, A. G.
Batey, Joseph Compton, Joseph Gould, F.
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Cove, William G. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Cowan, D. M Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Cripps, Sir Stafford Gray, Milner
Benson, G. Daggar, George Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Dallas, George Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Birkett, W. Norman Dalton, Hugh Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.)
Blindell, James Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool)
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Groves, Thomas E.
Bowen, J. W. Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Grundy, Thomas W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Day, Harry Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Broad, Francis Alfred Denman, Hon. R. D. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Bromfield, William Dudgeon, Major C. R. Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.)
Bromley, J. Dukes, C. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Brooke, W. Duncan, Charles Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Zetland)
Brothers, M. Ede, James Chuter Hardie, David (Rutherglen)
Hardie, G. D. (Springburn) Mansfield, W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Hair's, Percy A. March, S. Sherwood, G. H.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville Marcus, M. Shield, George William
Haycock, A. W. Markham, S. F. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Hayday, Arthur Marley, J. Shillaker, J. F.
Hayes, John Henry Marshall, Fred Shinwell, E.
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Mathers, George Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Matters, L. W. Simmons, C. J.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Maxton, James Sinkinson, George
Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Messer, Fred Sitch, Charles H.
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Middleton, G. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Herriotts, J. Mills, J. E. Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)
Hicks, Ernest George Milner, Major J. Smith, Ronnie (Penistone)
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Montague, Frederick Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Hoffman, P. C. Morley, Ralph Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Hollins, A. Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Hopkin, Daniel Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Sorensen, R.
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Mort, D. L. Stamford, Thomas W.
Isaacs, George Muff, G. Stephen, Campbell
John, William (Rhondda, West) Muggeridge, H. T. Strauss, G. R.
Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas Murnin, Hugh Sullivan, J.
Jones, Llewellyn-, F. Naylor, T. E. Sutton, J. E.
Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Noel Baker, P. J. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.) Thorne, W. (West Ham, Plaistow)
Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Oldfield, J. R. Thurtle, Ernest
Kelly, W. T. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Tillett, Ben
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Tinker, John Joseph
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon) Toole, Joseph
Kinley, J. Owen, H. F. (Hereford) Tout, W. J.
Kirkwood, D. Palin, John Henry Townend, A. E.
Lang, Gordon Paling, Wilfrid Vaughan, David
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Palmer, E. T. Viant, S. P.
Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Walkden, A. G.
Law, Albert (Bolton) Perry, S. F. Walker, J.
Law, A. (Rossendale) Peters, Dr. Sidney John Wallace, H. W.
Lawrence, Susan Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. Walters, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Tudor
Lawris, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Phillips, Dr. Marlon Watkins, F. C.
Lawson, John James Pole, Major D. G. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Potts, John S. Wellock, Wilfred
Leach, W. Price, M. P Welsh, James (Paisley)
Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Pybus, Percy John Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Quibell, D. J. K. West, F. R.
Lees, J. Ramsay, T. B. Wilson Westwood, Joseph
Leonard, W. Raynes, W. R. White, H. G.
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Richards, R. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Lindley, Fred W. Richardson, R. (Houghton, le-Spring) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Logan, David Gilbert Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Longbottom, A. W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Longden, F. Ritson, J. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Lunn, William Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Romeril, H. G. Williams, T, (York, Don Valley)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Rosbotham, D. S. T. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
McElwee, A. Rawson, Guy Wilson, J. (Oldham)
McEntee, V. L. Russell, Richard John (Eddisbury) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
McKinlay, A. Salter, Dr. Alfred Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)
MacLaren, Andrew Samuel, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Wise, E. F.
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Sunders, W. S. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
MacNeill-Weir, L. Sandham, E. Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
McShane, John James Sawyer, G. F.
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Scott, James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mander, Geoffrey le M. Scurr, John Mr. B. Smith and Mr. Charleton.
Manning, E. L. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Bird, Ernest Roy Campbell, E. T.
Albery, Irving James Boothby, R. J. G. Carver, Major W. H.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Castle Stewart, Earl of
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Cautley, Sir Henry S.
Astor, Maj, Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Boyce, Leslie Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City)
Astor, Viscountess Bracken, B. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth., S.)
Atholl, Duchess of Braithwaite, Major A. N. Camlet, Captain Victor A.
Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Brass, Captain Sir William Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.)
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Briscoe, Richard George Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Broadbent, Colonel J. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)
Balniel, Lord Buchan, John Chapman, Sir S.
Beaumont, M. W. Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Christie, J. A.
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Bullock, Captain Malcolm Clydesdale, Marquess of
Betterton, Sir Henry B. Burton, Colonel H. W. Cobb, Sir Cyril
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Butler, R. A. Cohen, Major J. Brunel
Colfox, Major William Philip Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Colman, N. C. D. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Colville, Major D. J. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Ross, Ronald D.
Cooper, A. Duff Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Cranbourne, Viscount Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Salmon, Major I.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Hurd, Percy A. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Dalkeith, Earl of Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Savery, S. S.
Dalrymple-White. Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Inskip, Sir Thomas Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Davies, Dr. Vernon Iveagh, Countess of Skelton, A. N.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Kindersley, Major G. M. Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Haliam)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Knox, Sir Alfred Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Dawson, Sir Philip Lamb, Sir J. Q. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Lane Fox, Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Smithers, Waldron
Dixey, A. C. Latham, H. P. (Scarboro' & Whitby) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Leigh, Sir John (Clapham) Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Eden, Captain Anthony Leighton, Major B. E. P. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Edmondson, Major A. J. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest Stanley, Hon. O. (Westmorland)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s. M.) Llewellin, Major J. J. Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Everard, W. Lindsay Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Stewart, W. J. (Belfast, South)
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Lockwood, Captain J. H. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Ferguson, Sir John Long, Major Hon. Eric Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Fermoy, Lord Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.
Fielden, E. B. Macquisten, F. A. Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Ford, Sir P. J. Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Thompson, Luke
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Makins, Brigadier-General E. Thomson, Sir F.
Frece, Sir Walter de Margesson, Captain H. D. Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Marjorlbanks, Edward Tltchfield, Major the Marquess of
Galbraith, J. F. W. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Ganzonl, Sir John Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Train, J.
Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Milne, Wardlaw-, J. S. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Gllmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Turton, Robert Hugh
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon
Gower, Sir Robert Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Wayland, Sir William A.
Greene, W. P. Crawford Muirhead, A. J. Wells, Sydney R.
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Nail-Cain, A. R. N. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Gritten, W. G. Howard Oman, Sir Charles William C. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Gunston, Captain D. W. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Peake, Captain Osbert Withers, Sir John James
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Penny, Sir George Womersley, W. J.
Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Perkins, W. R. D. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Hammersley, S. S. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon. Barnstaple) Wright, Brig-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Pownall, Sir Assheton Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
Hartington, Marquess of Ramsbotham, H.
Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Reid, David D. (County Down) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Haslam, Henry C. Remer, John R. Sir Victor Warrender and Captain Wallace.
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Division No. 376.] AYES. [11.0p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Hardie, David (Rutherglen) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Hardie, G. D. (Springburn) Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Hastings, Dr. Somerville Mort, D. L.
Altchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Haycock, A. W. Muff, G.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Hayday, Arthur Muggeridge, H. T.
Alpass, J. H. Hayes, John Henry Murnin, Hugh
Ammon, Charles George Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Naylor, T. E.
Angell, Sir Norman Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Noel Baker, P. J.
Arnott, John Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick) Noel-Buxton, Baroness (Norfolk, N.)
Aske, Sir Robert Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Oldfield, J. R.
Attlee, Clement Richard Herriotts, J. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston)
Ayles, Walter Hicks, Ernest George Owen, Major G. (Carnarvon)
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Owen, H. F. (Hereford)
Barnes, Alfred John Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Palin, John Henry
Barr, James Hoffman, P. C. Paling, Wilfrid
Batey, Joseph Hollins, A. Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan)
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hopkin, Daniel Perry, S. F.
Bennett, Sir E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Isaacs, George Phillips, Dr. Marlon
Benson, G. John, William (Rhondda, West) Pole, Major D. G.
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Johnston, Rt. Hon. Thomas Potts, John S.
Bendfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Jones, Llewellyn-, F. Price, M. P
Bowen, J. W. Jones, Rt. Hon. Lelf (Camborne) Pybus, Percy John
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Quibell, D. J. K.
Broad, Francis Alfred Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Raynes, W. R.
Bromfield, William Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. (Preston) Richards, R.
Bromley, J. Kelly, W. T. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Brooke, W. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. Thomas Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Brothers, M. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Kinley, J. Ritson, J.
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Kirkwood, D. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Buchanan, G. Lang, Gordon Romeril, H. G.
Burgess, F. G. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Rosbothanm D. S. T.
Burgin, Dr. E. L. Lathan, G. (Sheffield, Park) Rowson, Guy
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Law, Albert (Bolton) Salter, Dr. Alfred
Calne, Hall-, Derwent Law, A. (Rossendale) Sanders, W. S.
Cameron, A. G. Lawrence, Susan Sandham, E.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Sawyer, G. F.
Charleton, H. C. Lawson, John James Scurr, John
Chater, Daniel Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Clarke, J. S. Leach, W. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis
Cluse, W. S. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Sherwood, G. H.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Shield, George William
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Lees, J. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Compton, Joseph Leonard, W. Shillaker, J. F.
Cove, William G. Lewis, T. (Southampton) Shinwell, E.
Cripps, Sir Stafford Lindley, Fred W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Daggar, George Lloyd, C. Ellis Simmons, C. J.
Dallas, George Logan, David Gilbert Simon, E. D. (Manch'ter, Withington)
Dalton, Hugh Longbottom, A. W. Sinkinson, George
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) Longden, F. Sitch, Charles H.
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Lunn, William Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Dukes, C. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Smith, Lees-, Rt. Hon. H. B. (Keighley)
Duncan, Charles Mac Donald. Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Ede, James Chuter McElwee, A. Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Edmunds, J. E. McEntee, V. L. Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Egan, W. H. McKinlay, A. Snowden, Thomas (Accrington)
Foot, Isaac MacLaren, Andrew Sorensen, R.
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) MacNeill-Weir, L. Stamford, Thomas W.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) McShane, John James Stephen, Campbell
Gibbins, Joseph Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Strauss, G. R.
Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley) Mander, Geoffrey le M. Sullivan, J.
Gill, T. H. Manning, E. L. Sutton, J. E.
Gillett, George M. Manslield, W. Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Glassey, A. E. March, S. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)
Gossling, A. G. Marcus, M. Thorne, W. (West Ham. Plalstow)
Gould, F. Markham, S. F. Thurtle, Ernest
Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton) Marley, J. Tillett, Ben
Graham, Ht. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.) Marshall, Fred Tinker, John Joseph
Gray, Milner Mathers, George Toole, Joseph
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne). Matters, L. W. Townend, A. E.
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) Maxton, James Vaughan, David
Griffiths, T. (Monmouth, Pontypool) Messer, Fred Viant, S. P.
Groves, Thomas E. Middleton, G. Walkden, A. G.
Grundy, Thomas W. Mills, J. E. Walker, J.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Milner, Major J. Wallace, H. W.
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Montague, Frederick Watkins, F. C.
Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Morgan, Dr. H. B. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Morley, Ralph Wellock, Wilfred
Welsh James (Paisley) Williams, David (Swansea, East) Wise, E. F.
Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge) Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
West, F. R. Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly) Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
Westwood, Joseph Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
White, H. G. Wilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood) Wilson, J. (Oldham) Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson.
Whiteley, William (Blaydon) Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Wilkinson, Ellen C. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Everard, W. Lindsay Nail-Cain, A. R. N.
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Falle, Sir Bertram G. Nicholson, O. (Westminster)
Albery, Irving James Ferguson, Sir John Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Fermoy, Lord Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Fielden, E. B. Oman, Sir Charles William C.
Astor, Maj. Hn. John J. (Kent, Dover) Ford, Sir P. J. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Atholl, Duchess of Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Peake, Capt. Osbert
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Frece, Sir Walter de Perkins, W. R. D.
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Peters, Dr. Sidney John
Balniel, Lord Ganzonl, Sir John Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Beaumont, M. W. Gault, Lieut.-Col. A. Hamilton Pownall, Sir Assheton
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Betterton, Sir Henry B. Glyn, Major R. G. C. Ramsbotham, H.
Bevan, S. J. (Holborn) Gower, Sir Robert Reid, David D. (County Down)
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Remer, John H.
Bird, Ernest Roy Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Boothby, R. J. G. Greene, W. P. Crawford Reynolds, Col. Sir James
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall)
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Boyce, Leslie Gritten, W. G. Howard Ross, Ronald D.
Bracken, B. Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Rothschild, J. de
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Gunston, Captain D. W. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel E.
Brass, Captain Sir William Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Briscoe, Richard George Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Salmon, Major I.
Broadbent, Colonel J. Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hartington, Marquess of Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Harvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes) Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Buchan, John Haslam, Henry C. Savery, S. S.
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T. Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Scott, James
Bullock, Captain Malcolm Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Shakespeare, Geoffrey H.
Burton, Colonel H. W. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Butler, R. A. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Sinclair, Col T. (Queen's U., Belfst)
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hoare, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir S. J. G. Skelton, A. N.
Campbell, E. T. Hope, Sir Harry (Forfar) Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Carver, Major W. H. Hore-Bellsha, Leslie Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine. C.)
Castle Stewart, Earl of Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert S. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Cautley, Sir Henry S. Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Smithers, Waldron
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Hunter-Weston, Lt.-Gen. Sir Aylmer Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Lord H. (Ox. Univ.) Hurd, Percy A. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. Sir J. A. (Birm., W.) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston) Inskip, Sir Thomas Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Chapman, Sir S. Iveagh, Countess of Stanley, Hon. O (Westmorland)
Christie, J. A. Kedward, R. M. (Kent, Ashford) Steel-Maitland. Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Clydesdale, Marquess of Kindersley, Major G. M. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cobb, Sir Cyril Knox, Sir Alfred Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Cohen, Major J. Brunel Lamb, Sir J. Q. Taylor, Vice-Admiral E. A.
Colfox, Major William Philip Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Moiton) Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Lane Fox. Col. Rt. Hon. George R. Thompson, Luke
Colman, N. C. D. Latham, H. P. (Scarboro' & Whitby) Thomson, Mitchell-, Rt. Hon. Sir W.
Calville, Major D. J. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Tltchfield, Major the Marquess of
Cooper, A. Duff Leighton, Major B. E. P. Todd, Capt. A. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Little, Graham-, Sir Ernest Train, J.
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Llewellin, Major J. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon George Clement
Cowan, D. M. Locker-Lampson. Rt. Hon. Godfrey Turton, Robert Hugh
Cranborne, Viscount Lockwood, Captain J. H. Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H. Long, Major Hon. Eric Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Lymington, Viscount Ward, Lieut. -Col. Sir A. Lambert
Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West) Macdonald, Sir M. (Inverness) Warrender, Sir Victor
Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Dalkeith, Earl of Macquisten, F. A. Wayland, Sir William A.
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Wells, Sydney R.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil) Margesson, Captain H. D. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) Marjoribanks, Edward Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Dawson, Sir Philip Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Dixon, Captain Rt. Hon. Herbert Millar, J. D. Womersley, W. J.
Dudgeon, Major C. R. Milne, Wardlaw-, J. S. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Wright, Brig.-Gen. W. D. (Tavlst'k)
Eden, Captain Anthony Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
Edmondson, Major A. J. Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr)
Elliot, Major Walter E. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s-M.) Muirhead, A. J. Major Sir George Hennessy and Sir Frederick Thomson.

It being after Eleven of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Orders of the Souse of the 4th and 29th June, successively to put forthwith the Questions on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice had been given.

Amendments made: In page 31, line 29, leave out from the word "accordingly" to the word "incumbrance" in line 31.

In line 33, after the word "charter," insert the words: and any reference to a feu charter includes a reference to a feu disposition.

In page 32, line 6, leave out paragraph (i), and insert instead thereof the words: (i) the Court of Session shall he substituted for the High Court provided that in the application of sub-section (2) of section eleven of this Act for any reference to the High Court there shall be substituted a reference to the judges of the Court of Session named for the purpose of hearing appeals under the Valuation of Lands (Scotland) Acts, and an appeal shall lie to the House of Lords from any decision of the Court of Session or of the said judges under this Part of this Act; (j) the sheriff court shall be substituted for the county court and an appeal shall lie from any decision of the sheriff court under this Part of this Act to the aforesaid judges in the case of a decision under section eleven of this Act and to the Court of Session in any other case.

In line 12, at the end, insert the words: (j) for the purposes of section fifteen of this Act—

  1. (i) for the references to lands, tenements, and hereditaments there shall be substituted references to lands and heritages;
  2. (ii) where the annual value of any lands and heritages has been assessed on the basis that local rates in respect thereof are payable by the landlord, that value shall be reduced to such amount as would have been assessed if those rates had been payable by the occupier."

In line 37, at the end, insert the words: or where no such value appears in the said valuation roll the gross annual value as determined by the Commissioners.

In page 34, line 31, at the end, insert the words: and the said section shall not apply with respect to any instrument relating solely to shooting or fishing rights, or to a servitude.

In page 35, line 8, after the first word "court," insert the words: or to the judges of that court referred to in paragraph (i) of this section.

In line 8, after the word "this," insert the words, "part of this."—[Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.]