GOVERNMENT HOSPITALITY. (Hansard, 24 February 1931)

§ The FIRST COMMISSIONER of WORKS (Mr. Lansbury)
This Supplementary Estimate is made necessary by the fact that some of the delegations to the Imperial Conference were larger than anticipated, and also because of the fact that the expenses in connection with one of the delegations, which were not chargeable to the fund on the previous occasion, were so chargeable this year. In framing the original Estimate we were unable to take these matters into account because we did not know, first, that larger delegations were coming or, secondly, that these expenses which were not chargeable previously would be chargeable this time. That is as far as the Imperial Conference is concerned. Then, in relation to the visits of Royalties and Heads of States, we had no knowledge of those visits when the original Estimate was prepared. Those three causes account for the increase in expenditure which we are asking the Committee to sanction in this Supplementary Estimate. It has not been customary since the late Lord Harcourt was in charge of this Vote, to discuss the details of the expenditure, and I do not think the Committee, on this occasion, will require me to go into those details. Therefore, I think that no further explanation is necessary in regard to this expenditure.

§ Sir W. MITCHELL-THOMSON
We are indebted to the right hon. Gentleman for his explanation, and I do not wish to raise any point of detail on this Estimate. As a matter of fact, all these details come before the Comptroller and Auditor - General and the Public Accounts Committee and this Committee may be assured that a due and proper check is maintained on this expenditure. I would point out, however, that there is a very considerable increase in the total amount disbursed—in fact a larger increase than would appear at first sight, because the original Estimate showed a considerable increase over the Estimate 2028 of the previous year. The previous year's Estimate began in 1929 with a figure of £15,000. There was then a Supplementary Estimate of £9,000 making £24,000 in all for that year. The original Estimate this year, instead of being £24,000 was £36,000 and now we are asked for £11,000 on top of that. The Committee will agree that there is a substantial sum in question.
Hon. Members will see if they look at the White Paper, that this is one of the services in connection with which any unexpended balance remaining on 31st March is not liable to surrender to the Exchequer. It is obvious, from the statement in the next paragraph to the effect that already a sum of £10,000 has been advanced to this Fund out of the Civil Contingencies Fund, that there will not be any large unexpended balance at the end of this year, but if there is any balance, I presume it is carried forward from year to year. I do not know if the right hon. Gentleman has any cash balance at his disposal, but I have come across a curious little fact in the report of the Public Accounts Committee from which it appears that the fund in fact contains a certain amount of commodity reserves—what we might perhaps call liquid reserves. I observe from a report made to the Public Accounts Committee on the fund, that the fund buys its own wines and cigars and apparently maintains a reserve of them for use at public functions. I assume that these are only stock reserves but I should like to know what balance, if any, the right hon. Gentleman anticipates will be left in the fund on 31st March. Otherwise, it is quite in keeping with the usual practice that we should not press the right hon. Gentleman too hard for details of expenditure on certain missions, but no doubt there may be some other questions which will arise on the Vote in general. I would only repeat, in case any hon. Members has any suspicion that the fund is not duly accounted for, that the Public Accounts Committee exercises a check on the fund, and the right hon. Gentleman's Department accounts to the Public Accounts Committee for it.

Sir HILTON YOUNG
I should not question the policy which the right hon. Gentleman put forward that the actual objects of the hospitality under this fund 2029 should not be made a matter of debate in this Committee. It is generally recognised that the fund is a good institution, and that for such objects as the Imperial Conference it is inevitable that, whatever may be the position of national finance, there should be expenditure in the way of hospitality. Equally, under such conditions as the present, the Vote should not come before the Committee without some expression of opinion to indicate that the Committee are conscious of the extreme gravity of the national financial situation, and that a special standard of economy should be applied even to such a matter as national hospitality. It is very pleasant, and in accordance with the dignity of the nation, that in an ordinary year a wider view should be taken as to what can be done out of this fund, but it is equally in accordance with the spirit of the nation that at such a time as this the Committee should consider the expression of an opinion that a very special measure of economy should be observed, and that not a penny should be spent that is not inevitable for public purposes.
I should like to press for an answer to the question raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir W. Mitchell-Thomson) in relation to the form of these Estimates. Is it not somewhat unusual that in a case where there is no surrender of the balance, the expenditure should be accounted for in detail to the Comptroller and Auditor-General? Where the expenditure is accounted for to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, are there any cases in which no surrender is made of the balance? I should have doubted whether that was so, and there certainly seems to be an extension, which is not desirable, of the ordinary forms of our financial control by, in such a case as this, the balance not being surrendered. What is the object in this case of having no surrender of the balance? That condition is commonly applied to Grants-in-Aid where the Grants are made under special conditions. The special conditions which lead to there being a waiving of the condition of surrender, are that the object or bodies to which the grant is made have a continuing purpose which goes on from year to year, and it is desirable that some 2030 reserve or fund should be accumulated. Surely this is not a case of that sort; it is not a case in which there is any single continuing purpose. It is a case of expenditure which ought quite definitely to be under the direct control from time to time of the Treasury and the House of Commons. It appears to me, therefore, that this is not at all an appropriate case for waiving the condition of surrender.

§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE
Is the right hon. Gentleman dealing with something that arises on the Supplementary Estimate?

Sir H. YOUNG
I am dealing with something that arises so directly on the Supplementary Estimates that it has been found necessary to print it on page 6 in order to explain the Supplementary Estimate to us. The rules of Order are that discussions on Supplementary Estimates are restricted, but I trust that we are not so restricted that we cannot discuss something which is put down in black and white on the Estimate.

§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN
If the Minister in charge of this Supplementary Estimate thinks it necessary to print certain information on the Vote, I cannot prevent hon. Members discussing it.

Sir H. YOUNG
This is really quite relevant because the fact that we are making an additional Vote this year might lead to there being a balance, and it is pertinent to discuss the distribution of the balance which we may be creating by our Vote to-day. The Financial Secretary will expect the inevitable questions which are always addressed to the Financial Secretary, and ought always to be addressed to him, whenever there is a borrowing from the Civil Contingencies Fund. It is a very convenient expedient, but it is apt to loosen the strings of control; and in order to prevent that loosening becoming too great, it is proper on these occasions to ask for reassurances on familiar topics, such as, for instance, whether there were any savings against which the present expenditure could be set.
More particularly, I want to ask whether this is the earliest possible opportunity on which covering authority 2031 for the borrowing from the Civil Contingencies Fund could be obtained. To read between the lines of the Supplementary Estimate suggests that there has been a certain delay. Some of this expenditure was taken for the Imperial Conference, which was at a date which is not very proximate. Under these conditions, the inquiry is suggested as to whether the earliest possible opportunity has been taken for setting right the borrowing from the Civil Contingencies Fund. If it has not, the Financial Secretary will be the first to recognise that that is not in accordance with the most correct practice.

§ Captain CAZALET
When distinguished foreigners come to this country, or when conferences are held here, a certain amount of hospitality must be given by the Government, and it would inappropriate to question in detail how the hospitality has been administered. I am certain that under the present Government it has been well done. In the past year there have been three large conferences—the Naval, the Imperial, and the Indian Conferences—and the question has been raised by many people whether the hotel expenses of the delegates have been paid by the Government. I should be glad if the Minister would answer that question, and so allay a certain amount of public anxiety in regard to the amount of money which the Government are spending in hospitality of one kind and another.

Earl WINTERTON
I agree with the opening remarks of the Minister in introducing this Estimate, and as one who remembers the day when the late Lord Harcourt originated the Government Hospitality Fund, I am glad that whatever Government is in power, the admirable rule is adhered to, not only by the two Front Benches, but by the Back Benches, of not criticising in detail the manner in which the fund is spent. It would be very ungracious to criticise it, and it might be wounding to those whom we honour as our guests in this country. I do not object to the size of the Vote, but I agree with everything that has been said as to the method of its presentation. Two questions which I want to raise are concerned with the actual distribution of the money. The first relates to the question of the accommodation which is pro- 2032 vided for foreign guests at hotels. The Board of Trade are interesting themselves in the "Come to Britain" movement, one of the objects of which is to improve the accommodation available at London hotels. I suggest that the Government Hospitality Fund should work in with that policy by encouraging the newer hotels and sending some of the guests, who are provided for out of the fund, to those hotels.
Information reached me from more than one quarter that some of the delegates at a certain conference last year were not wholly satisfied with the accommodation provided them through the fund at one of the hotels. I am not blaming the Department, but this is an imporant matter, for the way he is treated makes the whole difference sometimes whether a distinguished foreign visitor who comes here grants what we want him to grant. In addition to the admirable officer who is the head of the fund, and who allocates accommodation, I presume that there is someone well versed in the hotel world who is able to advise the officials of the fund whether such and such an hotel is giving value for the money which is spent. The other matter to which I wish to refer is the coldness of Lancaster House. It has been responsible among many distinguished visitors and Members of this House and of another place for many colds and influenza attacks. Lancaster House, I believe, is generously loaned by the London County Council—

§ Mr. LANSBURY
It. is a Government building.

Earl WINTERTON
Would it not be possible to warm the place III some way? I have heard some criticism of the chilly feeling due not only to the physical atmosphere, but to the fact that the building gives the impression of having been stripped of all its furniture. It is not a very liveable place. So far as the food, drink and cigars are concerned, the Hospitality Fund has every reason to congratulate itself, but the conditions at Lancaster House might be improved. All sides of the Committee will agree that it is important to impress our foreign guests with the way in which we "do" them when they come to this country.

§ Major GLYN
May I draw attention to the extraordinary satisfaction which the officers of this fund give to many dis- 2033 tinguished guests when they are over here. It is not frequent that one can express this feeling, but I have heard from many delegates that the officers of the Department give the utmost satisfaction. It is noticeable to some of our Dominion guests that they are charged excessively high prices at some hotels for incidentals. A friend of mine from Canada was charged phenomenal sums for an apple which he found did not come from Canada. Little matters of that sort might well be dealt with by the Government Hospitality Fund, and an attempt made to include these incidental charges. It is these things charged to the private account, not the Government account, of an individual staying at one of these hotels which make it very expensive. I was told, on the authority of the head of one of the Delegations, that they were very dissatisfied at the very high amount charged for an extra breakfast, a whisky and soda, and matters of that sort. It is just those small things which make a great deal of difference. If the right hon. Gentleman would consult his officers who deal with these matters, I am sure the hotels in London would be ready to co-operate in getting over the difficulties.

§ Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE
I will deal with the financial points which have been raised. Like any other grant-in-aid, these amounts are not surrendered to the Treasury at the end of the year. It is exactly the same with similar grants such as the Empire Marketing Board grant-in-aid, the Forestry Commission grant-in-aid, and the Smallholdings grant-in-aid. The right hon. Gentleman wants to know why they are accounted for to the Comptroller and Auditor-General. I should have thought that that was the most natural course. Theo House of Commons does not take these accounts in detail, and it is natural that someone should do it, and it is done by the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who reports to the Public Accounts Committee. As to his question about the Civil Contingencies Fund, this Estimate has been presented to the House of Commons at the first reasonable opportunity. It covers a number of small items, and the total of these items which it has been possible to reach has been 2034 presented. The balance at present may be estimated at something like £400.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
It will be seen that this refers to the Imperial Conference, visits of heads of States and foreign Ministers. I am not asking the right hon. Gentleman to separate the sum between these various heeds, but, when we are asked to find a very large sum of money like this, we might have his assurance that all the main items up to 31st March have been settled. Such an assurance would be satisfactory to the whole Committee. One big conference has been mentioned, and I would like to know if all the amounts incurred up to 31st January have been rendered and are covered by this Vote. I do not want to see very large expenses coming in in the last month or two of this year and charged to next year. I would like to know what actually happens to the balance of this sum of £10,000. There is a balance of £400, but the hon. Gentleman did not make clear what the proceedings are.
I do not profess to be a financial expert, but when I find a grave difference of opinion between a real financial expert on this side of the Committee and a semi-financial expert on the other side of the Committee—[Interruption.] This is a large addition of nearly a third of the original Estimate, and we have nearly doubled the normal sum this year. It was £24,000 two years ago and is now £47,000, so that in a short time the Estimate has been practically doubled, which is a very serious position. Then there is the fact that some of this £10,000 is in the form of wines and cigars. One or two of my hon. Friends want to know where they are kept, and how they are stored.

§ Mr. B. SMITH
And who has got the key.

§ Mr. WILLIAMS
That is not the point. When the taxpayers' money has been invested in these goods, we are justified in trying to find out if they are properly stored. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Office of Works has them under his personal charge, they will be all right. I would like an assurance on that matter, as some of us have taken a great interest in it. Above all, I would like to know whether the accounts are up to date.

Major-General Sir NEWTON MOORE
I agree it would be ungracious to criticise these Estimates in view of the hospitality which is always extended to Members of Parliament who go overseas. Some reference has been made to Lancaster House. That is the dreariest place to which to ask anyone. One might as well take the British Museum and give a reception there. It is cold and inhospitable, and the right hon. Gentleman should consult his advisers and see if he can find a home that will be more appreciated by the guests of the Government.

§ Commander SOUTHBY
A point has been brought out which came rather as news to Members of this Committee, that part of the funds are invested in cigars and wine. I do not cavil at that. It is an excellent suggestion. Is the balance of £400 represented by stock?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
No.

§ Commander SOUTHBY
What is the value of the stock, and has any portion of this sum gone to replenish the stock and keep it up to the standard which the right hon. Gentleman considers proper?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
On the question of wines and cigars, there is a very efficient committee which takes charge of that point. The key of the place where the stock is kept is not in my possession, although, as this Committee knows, it would be perfectly safe with me, because I am that very vicious person who neither drinks nor smokes. Perhaps I would be the right sort of person to have charge.

§ Mr. LEIF JONES
Are they all Empire goods?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
As far as possible, they are Empire goods, but only as far as possible. We expect that the money balance will be £400. I would like to assure the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. C. Williams) that the accounts are all up-to-date and that we have nothing hidden away. We are not dodging our creditors, but we are paying them on the nail, as most hotel bills are paid. As to the accommodation in hotels, I would like to say a word on behalf of one of 2036 the officials of my Department. Ministers often get a good deal of credit for work done by their Department with which they have not had much to do. This work may look easy on paper but it is not so easy, as anyone who has anything to do with it knows, and Major Crankshaw works extremely hard, is extremely careful and is extremely economical. He does his very best to get the best accommodation at the best terms. As to whether all the expenses are paid, there may be incidentals at the hotels which are not included in the arrangements that are made. With regard to accommodation at the hotels, Major Crankshaw is continually consulting and doing all he can to get the best and most economical accommodation.

Earl WINTERTON
I did not realise that Major Crankshaw was in charge. If he is, then, with all his knowledge and experience, no question can arise.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
As to Lancaster House and the cold there, one of the rulers of our country visited that House when it was occupied by one of the Peers of the Realm and it is on record that, when he arrived, he said, "I come from my cottage to visit your palace." I do not understand all this criticism of Lancaster House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Colds."] Well, I did not get my cold there. We are making improvements to the ventilation. [Interruption.] Ventilation is an important question where colds are concerned. It is possible to have a good draught, and yet not to have proper ventilation, and we are going to take care of people properly when they go there. We will look into the question of whether the place can he warmed and made bearable for the people who attend dinner parties or other functions there. I would only repeat that those who are doing the work for the Department give a great deal of attention to their duties.

§ Mr. C. WILLIAMS
May I ask one more question? Does this expenditure cover the Indian Conference?

§ Mr. LANSBURY
It does not cover the whole expenses of the Indian Conference, but certain expenses in connection with it.