HC Deb 20 March 1930 vol 236 cc2275-90

The next Amendment I call is the first standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister). There are several Amendments hanging together, and I think the first one will settle them all.


I beg to move, in page 10, line 39, at the end, to insert the words: (5) (a) The Lord Chief Justice shall appoint commissioners (hereinafter referred to as judicial commissioners), consisting of a chairman, who shall be a judge of the supreme court, a chartered or incorporated accountant, and a person having industrial and commercial experience, for the purpose of hearing and deciding such matters as may be submitted to them under this section. (b) The meetings and procedure of the judicial commissioners shall be regulated in accordance with rules framed by the chairman for the purpose. (6) (a) The judicial commissioners shall have all such powers, rights, and privileges as are vested in the High Court or in any judge thereof, on the occasion of any matter coming before them under this section in respect of—

  1. (i) discovery and production to the judicial commissioners of documents and for the purposes thereof the judicial commissioners shall have power to appoint and employ accountants and other experts to make such investigations and reports as they shall order; and
  2. (ii) enforcing the attendance of witnesses and examining them on oath, affirmation or otherwise; and
  3. (iii) compelling the production of documents; and
  4. (iv) punishing persons guilty of contempt; and a summons signed by one of the judicial commissioners may be substituted for and equivalent to any formal process capable of being issued in any action for enforcing the attendance of witnesses and compelling the production of any documents.
(b) The judicial commissioners may act notwithstanding a vacancy in their number. I take it that it is proposed that we shall have a general discussion on this Amendment and then have one Division—unless the President of the Board of Trade accepts it, and I hope he may, because it is an Amendment of great liberality and reasonableness. It is a matter of happy augury for us all that the Naval Conferences has so far advanced to success as to enable some of our Friends to join us in the Lobby. It is very cheering news that has come to us during the dinner hour. I hope they may feel emboldened to support this Amendment also.

The object of this Amendment is to set up an authoritative judicial commission. We have now passed, on our downward course, this "charter of oppression" which the right hon. Gentleman has put upon us. We now have the coalowners free from all restrictions and conditions to settle the price of coal which they think they are best able to extract from the consumer, and there remains to us but one opportunity of giving the consumer, in the last resort, some potent and authoritative court of appeal to which he may take his grievances. All that the right hon. Gentleman proposes is that the consumer may go to a committee of investigation, where the lion and the lamb will lie down together. The coalowners and the miners will form one side of that tribunal—and I have no doubt they will agree very well. There will also be representatives of the consumers—or the consumed, as I think they might very properly be termed; and there will be an independent chairman. But that committee is to have no power.

It is only to investigate, to discuss, to express an opinion. Very likely it will express three opinions. The coalowners and the miners will certainly express one opinion; I should not be surprised if the consumers — or consumed — expressed another; and it may well be that the independent chairman will express a third. But that division of opinion does not really matter very much, because the committee cannot do anything; it can only report to the President of the Board of Trade. Oh, no, it does something else first; it approaches the parties concerned and tries to see what it can do by using its good offices with them. Having failed in those good offices, the committee, in three sets, then approaches the Board of Trade, and the Board of Trade tries its hand, and it approaches the parties, and if it does not succeed, with the parties—and having given them carte blanche to do what they like, I do not suppose it will be very successful—it may then itself have an investigation and send for papers and documents.

I wonder how long this is going to take? It has taken some time for the Bill to go through Committee, but that is nothing to the time which will be occupied in this process. In November a consumer will complain of the price, and I suppose by about the following June, when prices generally have fallen, we may possibly get some conclusion from the Board of Trade. Six months will elapse and nothing will be done. This Amendment offers to the unhappy consumer a judicial tribunal to which he can apply. I can cite very good precedents for the setting up of such a tribunal. The Railway and Canal Commission and the Railway Rates Tribunal have been set up to deal with railway rates and the complaints of traders. Although in the case of railway rates and railway transport the railway companies are governed by Act of Parliament, the traders are given a judicial court of appeal as against the railway companies, and how much more important it is that some real right of appeal should be given to the consumers under this Bill where almost a free hand is allowed to the coalowners.

It is no good telling us that the President of the Board of Trade has power to deal with these matters, because they are questions that cannot be dealt with effectively unless the tribunal has power to make an order. If a district committee found that the public were suffering, they would be able to say that the public shall not suffer any more and some alteration would be made. There should be an authoritative judicial court of appeal, and I propose by this Amendment that we should establish such a court. Such a tribunal should include a judge or an experienced barrister, a capable accountant and a man with commercial experience. That is exactly what is done in the case of the Railway and Canal Commission, and I think we should establish such a body as that which I am proposing, giving it power to hear appeals from the decisions of the local investigation committees. The tribunal, I suggest, should have power to deal in the first instance with any serious difference which arises between the traders and the coalowners covering the whole country. Such a question should not be made the sport of 21 different arbitration tribunals, and it ought to come before a proper tribunal and be settled according to principles which that tribunal would lay down.

The tribunal I propose should be given power to alter schemes which militate against the public interest, and I do not see any point in an inquiry unless that can be done. I know that the Board of Trade have power to alter these schemes, and if they are found to be working against the public interest, then I think this judicial tribunal should have at least as much authority in such matters as that which is possessed by the President of the Board of Trade. If those committees recommend some proposal outside the scope of the Act they ought to come to Parliament. This is the last opportunity we shall have of giving the consumer any protection under this Bill, and there is every precedent for doing what I have put forward. The consumers ought to have an authoritative judicial tribunal before which their cases can be tried.


My right hon. Friend has thrown great enthusiasm into his task of promoting the cause of judicial commissioners in what I understand is to be almost the last of these efforts during the Committee stage of the Bill. I think I can summarise the matter quite simply by saying that the choice before the Committee is between the establishment of elaborate machinery of this kind, and the machinery for safeguarding consumers and owners in the district schemes which is provided partly in the Bill, and is improved by the new Clause which the Government have on the Paper. As regards the functions under any district scheme, I think that my right hon. Friend is quite wrong in trying to establish any case, either on the basis of the Railway and Canal Commission or on the basis of the Railway Rates Tribunal. To take the latter as an illustration, that was a tribunal set up under the Railways Act, 1921, to perform a specific duty, namely, to fix the charges of railway companies in this country to give them the standard revenue of 1913, together with certain allowances for capital expenditure and the rest, while that remained un-remunerative. In other words, it was a specific duty under an Act of Parliament, and was not a problem relating to an industry like the coal industry. Railways had come into four great amalgamations or trusts, and they were given that form of guarantee, if I may so describe it. But there is no underlying guarantee of that kind in the case of the coal industry, because it operates, not only within this country, but outside, and is not in a semi-sheltered position as the railways are. I think that the Committee should not worry, if I may say so, at this late hour, with comparisons with the Railway and Canal Commission or the Railway Rates Tribunal.

The short question is whether this machinery which my right hon. Friend proposes is preferable to the machinery in the Bill. Quite shortly, what does the Bill provide? As regards the district schemes, on any grievance which may be felt by an individual owner regarding the quota, the standard tonnage, the minimum price, or whatever the conditions may be, he has a right to go to the executive body of his fellow-owners, and he is a member of that body or is represented on it. Then, if he is not satisfied, he has a right of immediate appeal to an independent arbitrator, a competent person, whose decision for all practical purposes will be final and binding in a matter of this kind; and, for all that I know, he may have certain rights in law as well, though I cannot pronounce on that. That is the position in regard to the operation of the scheme within the district, and it gives a plain protection, so far as the owner is concerned, in the matters which affect him when he becomes a party to or is brought into this district organisation.

But probably the right hon. Gentleman has much more in mind the position of the consumer. All along we have sought to protect the consumers' interests, and, in so far as the Bill was originally inconsistent with that, we have sought to improve it. The district committees of investigation, though small in number, will be representative and competent to deal with any difficulty that arises in the functions or operations of a district scheme. I should hope that no large national question would arise and that this machinery would be quite sufficient for its purpose. Any industry or railway company, or any individual in the locality, who considers that the price of coal is too high, and that it has been raised by the operation of the district scheme, may go to the committee, which will take up the case and, if they are satisfied that there is an abuse, call upon the executive body to have it put right, or it can go to arbitration, and, if a remedy is not found, the scheme may continue on a non-statutory basis, but only if the Board of Trade approves and only if the scheme is broadly in keeping with the provisions of the central machinery; in other words, in my judgment, if this particular difficulty is not of major or commanding importance. If it falls into the latter category, the Board of Trade has power to withdraw the statutory basis of the scheme and, beyond that, it may put forward a scheme of its own, or it may vary the constitution and the personnel of the district scheme. That is far more economical than the judge and judicial commissioners which the right hon. Gentleman, in an access of bureaucratic enthusiasm, proposes to drive into this well-meaning legislation.


The right hon. Gentleman knows what road is paved with good intentions.


The safeguards in the Bill are complete, with the long Clause which is to be moved later, and on those grounds I feel that this elaborate machinery is not required. With very great regret, in the presence of such universal good will, I am compelled to reject the Amendment.


I expressed my surprise earlier in the day that the Government should have refused to accept an Amendment which seemed to me to be consequential upon the decision arrived at last week, but I should have been exceedingly surprised if they had accepted the Amendment that is now before the Committee. It is one which has never had any support from these benches and is superfluous in view of the concessions which have already been made by the Government to the representations we made on the Second Reading. We then urged that the powers of control under this Clause in the interests of the consumer were wholly inadequate, and we strongly represented that the elaborate schemes in the Bill as it came before us were not a sufficient protection to the interests of the consumer. Among the four questions that were put on the Second Reading from these benches was the question whether the Government would make proposals in Committee for securing that the representations of the consumers should be adequately and quickly considered, and if they were held to be well founded, should be given effect to. That the Government have done, and the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) denouncing the Bill as it stood, entirely ignored the new Sub-sections which stand upon the Paper and which we shall reach in a few minutes. Those Sub-sections provide that, where representation is made that the scheme is likely to have an effect contrary to the public interest—that is the unfair and undue raising of prices—the matter shall be considered by these committees of investigation, including representatives of the consumers, and, if they think the representations are well founded, they may take action accordingly. If the mine-owners, who have the entire control of the committees under the Act, do not observe those recommendations, the matter can at once be put to the judgment of an independent arbitrator.

There is the further provision, to which the President of the Board of Trade did not draw attention in his remarks just now, that, where the arbitrator gives an award, it shall be the duty of the committees of mineowners to comply therewith. Therefore, what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon said, that there was no control of any sort, and that mineowners were left entirely free and independent to work their wicked will upon the consumers, is no longer the case. Machinery has been put into the framework of this Bill—I do not say anything at this stage on that—to meet the particular claim that was made. In these circumstances, the Amendment with regard to judicial commissioners is wholly unnecessary. Either these commissioners will have to deal with points of law, in which case they are really superseding the Courts of Law—and it is far better that such matters should be dealt with by the Courts—or else they will be dealing with matters which can be far better and more simply dealt with by the arbitrators who are now proposed under the provisions of the Bill. Under these circumstances, I trust that this Amendment will not be pressed, but if it is we cannot support it.


I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade one question. Has he ever had any personal experience of arbitration, and has he any idea how long it takes, and how much it costs?


I support this Amendment. I think that it is a great improvement on the Clauses. It is a very difficult thing for any of us to take the responsibility which will be required to be taken in this matter. You want a semi-judicial body of this description. There may be vast sums at stake in the price of coal, far greater than are decided in the Courts of Law in any one year. There may be millions at stake in this matter. This is a far greater improvement on the Courts, and it will secure, at all events, that the commissioners shall be men of the highest possible standard. There is no guarantee of that in the subsequent Clauses. How do we know what the Board of Trade may be in the future? We may have a Board of Trade which is being dictated to from behind by miners, or mine-owners, or miners' representatives, just as we have a Government at the present time who are being dictated to by miners' representatives. The whole Bill is the result of what you may call a syndicalist alliance between miners and mineowners, and the wretched consumer is to be victimised because he is not organised. He will have to pay more and more under the Bill for his coal; he ought to have the protection of a semi-judicial tribunal.


I have listened to this Debate hoping to hear from one side or the other something about what is really meant by the word "consumer." The whole of the cumbrous machinery proposed by the Bill seems to be designed possibly to meet the needs of great consumers of coal like railway companies or the whole gas industries of the country combined. They might be able to use this kind of machinery. To them the judicial body proposed by the right hon. Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) might possibly be more effective, and I think it is an improvement on the proposal in the Bill. But can anyone imagine the consumer who I have in mind, the ordinary humble consumer of coal who buys by the hundredweight, being able to get any redress either by the machinery of the Bill or the Amendment that has been moved. I have not heard a single word to show that the Government have done anything to deal with the complaints of any unjust increase of price which might be made by this combination of mineowners and workers, or have dealt in any effective way with the real consumers of coal in this country, the small consumers, humble people, to whom this is a vital matter.

I cannot say that I regard the judicial tribunal suggested by my right hon. Friend as being able really to deal with the case at all. There is no combination of these humble consumers. They have no trade union behind them or federation to speak for them. They have no one. The Government have no mercy upon them; and the Liberals have run away. They have no friends in this House and, therefore, I desire to say one word on their behalf. Whether we pass the proposal of the Government as it is or with the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment, the fact remains that the humble consumers of coal are going to have the price increased against them; they are going to be ground down by a combination of mineowners and miners.


There is one point to which I desire to call attention. Under the Clause to be submitted to the Committee only two parties are to be represented before the arbitrator. They are the investigating committee and the body charged with the duty of administering the schemes. There is no opportunity at all for the ordinary consumer of coal to be represented before that arbitrator, and that is one of the reasons why I so much prefer the Clause that has been proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hendon (Sir P. Cunliffe-Lister) because it does seem important that when you are giving these tremendous powers of price-fixing you ought to ensure that the consumers of coal throughout the

country have some tribunal before which they can appear and have their casa heard. Taking the case before the Board of Trade is not the same tiling at all. As the learned Attorney-General will know, it has often been said that it is almost as important that justice should appear to be done as that it should be done, and the point of having a tribunal before which the consumers or their representatives can appear, rather than before the Board of Trade, is that they know then that their case has been heard. It is not just a matter of writing a letter to the Government Department and getting a very polite, formal reply within a day or two, and then a reply three weeks or so later saying that the matter has been disposed of. Really, it is most important that every consumer should be able in some way, through his organisation, perhaps, to appear before a person whom he will see and know that his case is heard. I should really have thought that, at any rate, at this hour of the evening, this proposal would have got support from the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Members below the Gangway, because we have now seen that Hearts are bold again and arms are strong. It seems to me, from the way in which Members of the Liberal party have gone this way and that on this proposal—if I may quote one more line from the same hymn—that Soon, soon to ancient warriors comes their rest.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 207; Noes, 285.

Division No. 234.] AYES. [10.54 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N. (Edgbaston)
Albery, Irving James Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart Chapman, Sir S.
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l) Boyce, H. L. Christie, J. A.
Allen, Sir J. Sandeman (Liverp'l., W.) Bracken, B. Cockerill, Brig.-General Sir George
Allen, W. E. D. (Belfast, W.) Braithwaite, Major A. N. Colfox, Major William Philip
Amery, Rt. Hon. Leopold C. M. S. Brass, Captain Sir William Colville, Major D. J.
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Briscoe, Richard George Courtauld, Major J. S.
Atholl, Duchess of Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'l'd., Hexham) Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L.
Atkinson, C. Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y) Crichton-Stuart, Lord C.
Baillie-Hamilton, Hon. Charles W. Buchan, John Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Bullock, Captain Malcolm Crookshank, Capt. H. C.
Balfour, George (Hampstead) Butler, R. A. Croom-Johnson, R. P.
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) Butt, Sir Alfred Culverwell, C. T. (Bristol, West)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Carver, Major W. H. Cunliffe-Lister, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip
Beaumont, M. W. Castle Stewart, Earl of Dalkeith, Earl of
Bellairs, Commander Cariyon Cautley, Sir Henry S. Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey
Bennett, Sir Albert (Nottingham, C.) Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford)
Betterton, Sir Henry B. Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth, S.) Davidson, Major-General Sir J. H.
Birchall, Major Sir John Dearman Cazalet, Captain Victor A. Davies, Dr. Vernon
Bird, Ernest Roy Chadwick, Sir Robert Burton Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)
Davison, Sir W. H. (Kensington, S.) King, Commodore Rt. Hon. Henry D. Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Duckworth, G. A. V. Knox, Sir Alfred Ross, Major Ronald D.
Dugdale, Capt. T. L. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Eden, Captain Anthony Lane Fox, Rt. Hon. George R. Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Edmondson, Major A. J. Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Salmon, Major I.
Elliot, Major Writer E. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.) Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Samuel, Samuel (W'dsworth, Putney)
Everard, W. Lindsay Little, Dr. E. Graham Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Liewellin, Major J. J. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Ferguson, Sir John Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Savery, S. S.
Fermoy, Lord Long, Major Eric Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Fielden, E. B. Lymington, Viscount Skelton, A. N.
Fison, F. G. Clavering McConnell, Sir Joseph Smith, Louis W. (Sheffield, Hallam)
Ford, Sir P. J. Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.) Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Macquisten, F. A. Smithers, Waldron
Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Mac Robert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. Somerset, Thomas
Ganzoni, Sir John Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Gault, Lieut.- Col. Andrew Hamilton Makins, Brigadier-General E. Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East);
Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey & Otley) Margesson, Captain H. D. Southby, Commander A. R. J.
Glyn, Major R. G. C. Marjoribanks, E. C. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Gower, Sir Robert Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Stanley, Maj. Hon. O. (W'morland)'
Graham, Fergus (Cumberland, N.) Meller, R. J. Steel-Maitland, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur
Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. Merriman, Sir F. Boyd Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Greaves-Lord, Sir Walter Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham) Sueter, Rear-Admiral M. F.
Greene, W. P. Crawford Mond, Hon. Henry Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Grenfell, Edward C. (City of London) Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B. Thomson, Sir F.
Gretton, Colonel Rt. Hon. John Moore, Sir Newton J. (Richmond) Tinne, J. A.
Gritten, W. G. Howard Moore, Lieut.-Colonel T. C. R. (Ayr) Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) Todd, Capt. A. J.
Gunston, Captain D. W. Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive Train, J.
Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Muirhead, A. J. Tryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Hall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich) Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge) Turton, Robert Hugh
Hamilton, Sir George (Ilford) Nicholson, O. (Westminster) Vaughan-Morgan, Sir Kenyon
Hammersley, S. S. Nicholson, Col. Rt. Hn. W. G. (Ptrsf'ld) Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Hanbury, C. Oman, Sir Charles William C. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry O'Neill, Sir H. Wardlaw-Milne, J. S.
Hartington, Marquess of Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William Warrender, Sir Victor
Haslam, Henry C. Peake, Capt. Osbert Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Henderson, Capt. R. R. (Oxf'd, Henley) Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple) Wayland, Sir William A.
Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Pilditch, Sir Philip Wells, Sydney R.
Hennessy, Major Sir G. R. J. Power, Sir John Cecil Williams, Charles (Devon, Torquay)
Hills, Major Rt. Hon. John Waller Preston, Sir Walter Rueben. Wilson, G. H. A. (Cambridge U.)
Howard-Bury, Colonel C. K. Purbrick, R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.) Ramsbotham, H. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
Hurd, Percy A. Rawson, Sir Cooper Womersley, W. J.
Hurst, Sir Gerald B. Reid, David D. (County Down) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Iveagh, Countess of Remer, John R. Young, Rt. Hon. Sir Hilton
James, Lieut.-Colonel Hon. Cuthbert Rentoul, Sir Gervais S.
Jones, Sir G. W. H. (Stoke New'gton) Reynolds, Col. Sir James TELLERS FOR THE AYES.
Kindersley, Major G. M. Roberts, Sir Samuel (Ecclesall) Captain Sir George Bowyer and
Sir George Penny.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Bromley, J. Dickson, T.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Brooke, W. Dukes, C.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Brothers, M. Duncan, Charles
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Craigle M. Brown, C. W. E. (Notts, Mansfield) Ede, James Chuter
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Brown, James (Ayr and Bute) Edmunds, J. E.
Alpass, J. H. Brown, W. J. (Wolverhampton, West) Edwards, E. (Morpeth)
Ammon, Charles George Buchanan, G. Egan, W. H.
Angell, Norman Burgess, F. G. Elmley, Viscount
Arnott, John Burgin, Dr. E. L. England, Colonel A.
Aske, Sir Robert Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Foot, Isaac
Attlee, Clement Richard Buxton, Rt. Hon. Noel (Norfolk, N.) Forgan, Dr. Robert
Ayles, Walter Calne, Derwent Hall- Freeman, Peter
Baker, John (Wolverhampton, Bilston) Cameron, A. G. Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton).
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Cape, Thomas Gardner, J. P. (Hammersmith, N.)
Barnes, Alfred John Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Gibbins, Joseph
Barr, James Charieton, H. C. Gibson, H. M. (Lancs, Mossley).
Batey, Joseph Chater, Daniel Gill, T. H.
Bellamy, Albert Church, Major A. G. Gillett, George M.
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Clarke, J. S. Glassey, A. E.
Bennett, Captain E. N. (Cardiff, Central) Cluse, W. S. Gossling, A. G.
Bennett, William (Battersea, South) Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Gould, F.
Benson, G. Cocks, Frederick Seymour. Graham, D. M. (Lanark, Hamilton)
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Compton, Joseph Graham, Rt. Hon. Wm. (Edin., Cent.)
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Cove, William G. Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Daggar, George Groves, Thomas E.
Bowen, J. W. Dallas, George Grundy, Thomas W.
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W. Dalton, Hugh Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)
Broad, Francis Alfred Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Brockway, A. Fenner Day, Harry Hall, Capt. W. P. (Portsmouth, C.)
Bromfield, William Denman, Hon. R. D. Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn)
Hardie, George D. Markham, S. F. Shield, George William
Hastings, Dr. Somerville Marley, J. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Haycock, A. W. Marshall, Fred Shillaker, J. F.
Hayday, Arthur Mathers, George Shinwell, E.
Hayes, John Henry Matters, L. W. Short, Alfred (Wednesbury)
Henderson, Right Hon. A. (Burnley) Maxton, James Simmons, C. J.
Henderson, Arthur, Junr. (Cardiff, S.) Melville, Sir James Sinkinson, George
Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Messer, Fred Sitch, Charles H.
Herriotts, J. Middleton, G. Smith, Alfred (Sunderland)
Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Mills, J. E. Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe)
Hirst, W. (Bradlord, South) Milner, J. Smith, Frank (Nuneaton)
Hoffman, P. C. Montague, Frederick Smith, H. B. Lees- (Keighley)
Hollins, A. Morgan, Dr. H. B. Smith, Rennie (Penistone)
Hopkin, Daniel Morley, Ralph Smith, Tom (Pontefract)
Hore-Belisha, Leslie. Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South) Smith, W. R. (Norwich)
Horrabin, J. F. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.) Snell, Harry
Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Mort, D. L. Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Isaacs, George Moses, J. J. H. Sorensen, R.
Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Mosley, Lady C. (Stoke-on-Trent) Stamford, Thomas W.
John, William (Rhondda, West) Mosley, Sir Oswald (Smethwick) Stephen, Campbell
Johnston, Thomas Muff, G. Stewart, J. (St. Rollox)
Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown) Muggeridge, H. T. Strachey, E. J. St. Loe
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Murnin, Hugh Strauss, G. R.
Jones, T. I. Mardy (Pontypridd) Nathan, Major H. L. Sullivan, J.
Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Naylor, T. E. Sutton, J. E.
Jowitt, Rt. Hon. Sir W. A. Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter) Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln)
Kelly, W. T. Noel Baker, P. J. Taylor, W. B. (Norfolk, S. W.)
Kennedy, Thomas Oldfield, J. R. Thomas, Rt. Hon. J. H. (Derby)
Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Oliver, George Harold (Ilkeston) Thurtle, Ernest
Kinley, J. Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley) Tinker, John Joseph
Kirkwood, D. Palin, John Henry Toole, Joseph
Knight, Holford Paling, Wilfrid Tout, W. J.
Lang, Gordon Palmer, E. T. Townend, A. E.
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Parkinson, John Allen (Wigan) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles
Lathan, G. Perry, S. F. Turner, B.
Law, Albert (Bolton) Pethick, Lawrence, F. W. Vaughan, D. J.
Law, A. (Rosendale) Phillips, Dr. Marlon Viant, S. P.
Lawrence, Susan Picton-Turbervill, Edith Walkden, A. G.
Lawrie, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Pole, Major D. G. Walker, J.
Lawson, John James Potts, John S. Wallace, H. W.
Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Price, M. P. Wallhead, Richard C.
Leach, W. Pybus, Percy John Watkins, F. C.
Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Quibell, D. J. K. Watson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Lee, Jennie (Lanark, Northern) Rathbone, Eleanor Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Lees, J. Raynes, W. R. Wellock, Wilfred
Lewis, T. (Southampton) Richards, R. Welsh, James (Paisley)
Lindley, Fred W. Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring) Welsh, James C. (Coatbridge)
Lloyd, C. Ellis Riley, Ben (Dewsbury) West, F. R.
Logan, David Gilbert Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Longbottom, A. W. Ritson, J. Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Longden, F. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich) Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Romeril, H. G. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Lowth, Thomas Rosbotham, D. S. T. Williams, David (Swansea, East)
Lunn, William Rowson, Guy Williams Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Macdonald, Gordon (Ince) Salter, Dr. Alfred Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Samuel Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Darwen) Wilson C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
McElwee, A. Samuel, H. W. (Swansea, West) Wilson, J. (Oldham)
McEntee, V. L. Sanders, W. S. Wilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
McKinlay, A. Sandham, E. Winterton, G. E. (Leicester, Loughb'gh)
Maclean, Sir Donald (Cornwall, N.) Sawyer, G. F. Wise, E. F.
Maclean, Neil (Glasgow, Govan) Scrymgeour, E. Wood, Major McKenzie (Banff)
Malone, C. L'Estrange (N'thampton) Scurr, John Wright, W. (Rutherglen)
Mander, Geoffrey le M. Sexton, James Young, R. S. (Islington, North)
Mansfield, W. Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
March, S. Shepherd, Arthur Lewis TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Marcus, M. Sherwood, G. H. Mr. Charles Edwards and Mr. T. Henderson.

Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.


I beg to move, in page 11, line 9, to leave out from the word "scheme" to the word "is" in line 10.

In moving this Amendment, I will refer also to my subsequent Amendment—in line 22, after the word "them," to insert the words "under this Sub-section," and also to the proposed new Sub-sections (8), (9) and (10) which stands in my name. The effect of leaving out the words or any act or omission of any persons in respect of their functions under the scheme. is to draw a distinction as to the work of the investigation committee relating to the structure of a scheme. This is intended to deal with the point that there was no adequate provision for consumers. The Government have now defined the structure of the Bill, and in the Clause on the following page we protect the consumer.


We think that the provisions which the right hon. Gentleman has inserted in the interests of the consumer are really so much camouflage. His original provision was useless, and it is not added to by the words which he now proposes, but we do not intend to divide.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 11, line 22, after the word "them," insert the words "under this Sub-section."

In page 12, line 11, at the end, add the words: (8) If after investigating any complaint made with respect to the operation of a scheme, a committee of investigation is of opinion that any act or omission of any persons in respect of their functions under the scheme is having or is likely to have an effect contrary to the public interests, it shall be the duty of the committee to make representations with respect thereto to the persons having power under the scheme to rectify the matter, and if, upon such representations being made, the matter is not dealt with to the satisfaction of the committee, the committee may refer the matter to a single independent arbitrator to be appointed by agreement between the committee and the body charged with the duty of administering the scheme, or, in default of agreement, by the Board of Trade, and the persons having power under the scheme to give effect to the decision shall comply therewith and exercise their functions under the scheme in conformity with the decision. (9) A committee of investigation upon referring any matter to arbitration in accordance with the last foregoing sub-section, shall make a report thereon to the Board of Trade, and shall also report to the Board the arbitrator's decision and what steps have been taken to comply therewith, and the Board shall have power to make in the scheme such amendments (if any) as they think necessary for securing that the scheme will be administered in conformity with the decision, and in particular may by such amendments alter the composition of the body charged with the administration of the scheme as if the scheme had been made by the Board. (10) The Board of Trade shall make regulations for the conduct of references to arbitration under this section, and such regulations shall make provision as to the persons by whom the remuneration of the arbitrator is to be defrayed, and all such regulations shall be laid before Parliament, and the provisions of the Arbitration Act, 1889, shall not apply with respect to any arbitration under this section except in so far as they may be applied by the said regulations."—[Mr. W. Graham.]

Clauses 5 (Information to be furnished to Board of Trade), 6 (Report to be laid before Parliament), 7 (Information obtained under Act not to be disclosed), and 8 (Offences and penalties) ordered to stand part of the Bill.