HC Deb 28 July 1930 vol 242 cc181-5
Mr. A. SOMERVILLE

I beg to move, in page 52, line 31, to leave out the word "twopence," and to insert instead thereof the words "one penny."

The principle of this Amendment has been to some extent discussed on Clause 22. This Clause gives us some safeguards, but they do not go nearly far enough. In a large area, such as the Trent catchment area, a twopenny rate produces £176,000, and that would be covered by the first safeguard as to a scheme which costs more than £50,000 requiring the consent of the Minister. The reduction from twopence to a penny is meant to safeguard the smaller districts. At a previous stage of this discussion the Minister read out a list of small areas in which a penny rate produces very small sums, but surely that proves, as distinct from what he wished to prove, that these small areas should get larger Exchequer grants. It is with the object of safeguarding smaller areas that I am moving this Amendment.

Sir J. LAMB

I beg to second the Amendment.

I do not wish to repeat the arguments put forward on this and similar Amendments, but I submit that here is another opportunity for the Minister to do something to strengthen this particular Clause if he wishes to do so.

Dr. ADDISON

We have discussed already what would be the equivalent of a rate of twopence in some areas as compared with an expenditure of £50,000, and the present figure was selected as giving a fair check over expenditure by internal drainage districts where an inquiry might be called for with the object of checking extravagance. I think this Amendment would interfere with the execution of quite trivial works which an authority ought to be trusted to decide if it is to be entrusted with any duties at all. I have gone as far as I can be expected to go, and I cannot accept this Amendment.

Brigadier-General BROWN

I would like to ask the Minister if it is quite clear that this Clause means only schemes of over £50,000. The limit of the rate is to be twopence.

Dr. ADDISON

May I point out to the hon. and gallant Member that a scheme would be equally eligible for Government grant whether it cost £50,000 of £5,000? It depends entirely upon what is the scheme. If the scheme costs more than the amount fixed by the Clause it cannot be sanctioned without a public inquiry.

Lieut.-Colonel ACLAND-TROYTE

I do not think that the protection afforded by this Clause is sufficient. There is no guarantee that the Minister will act in accordance with the findings of the inquiry. The effect of an inquiry might be to force the expenditure up to a twopenny rate. Under the Clause as it now stands, the advice of the inquiry might be ignored, and that would force the expenditure up to a twopenny rate. If the amount is reduced from twopence to one penny, we shall get a little more protection than we have under the Bill.

Mr. DIXEY

The point which has been raised is a very important one, and I hope we shall have a reply from the Minister.

Mr. W. R. SMITH

This subject was debated very fully during the Committee stage. During that discussion Members asked for more protection in regard to schemes which might be very costly, and the Minister of Agriculture agreed to authorise, first of all, the limitation of a sum of money—£50,000. If the scheme exceeds that amount there is to be an inquiry, and there is the further protection that if it exceeds a twopenny rate there will be a public inquiry. I think that is a very reasonable protection, and in these circumstances it is not possible to accept the Amendment before the House. I think the protection is quite adequate under the Bill as it now stands.

Mr. WELLS

Some of the schemes to be carried out may cost more than a twopenny rate. In some districts in my constituency a penny rate produces only £6,000, and it is quite possible that some of the schemes will require more than a twopenny rate.

Lieut.-Colonel HENEAGE

If these words are put in, we consider that the

Clause will give a far better safeguard both to the ratepayer and to the man who is going to benefit. I think that in a short time when the country comes to deal with the Bill, it will be of the same opinion as we are.

Question put, "That the word 'twopence' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 241; Noes, 120.

Division No. 469.] AYES. [10.52 p.m.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West) Glassey, A. E. McGovern, J. (Glasgow, Shettleston)
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock) Gossling, A. G. McKinlay, A.
Addison, Rt. Hon. Dr. Christopher Gould, F. MacLaren, Andrew
Aitchison, Rt. Hon. Cralgie M. Graham, Rt. Hon.Wm. (Edin.,Cent.) Maclean, Nell (Glasgow, Govan)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (Hillsbro') Granville, E. McShane, John James
Alpass, J. H. Gray, Milner Mander, Geoffrey le M.
Ammon, Charles George Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Colne) Mansfield, W.
Arnott, John Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan) March, S.
Aske, Sir Robert Griffith, F. Kingsley (Middlesbro' W.) Marcus, M.
Attlee, Clement Richard Groves, Thomas E. Markham, S. F.
Ayles Walter Grundy, Thomas W. Marley, J.
Baker John (Wolverhampton, Bllston) Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil) Marshall, Fred
Baldwin, Oliver (Dudley) Hall, Capt. W. G. (Portsmouth, C.) Mathers, George
Barnes Alfred John Hamilton, Mary Agnes (Blackburn) Matters, L. W.
Barr, James Hardie, George D. Maxton, James
Batey, Joseph Harris, Percy A. Melville, Sir James
Bellamy, Albert Hartshorn, Rt. Hon. Vernon Messer, Fred
Benn, Rt. Hon. Wedgwood Hastings, Dr. Somerville Middleton, G.
Haycock, A. W. Mills, J. E.
Bennett, Capt. Sir E. N. (Cardiff C.) Hayday, Arthur Milner, Major J.
Benson, G. Hayes, John Henry Morley, Ralph
Bentham, Dr. Ethel Henderson, Arthur, junr. (Cardiff, S.) Morris, Rhys Hopkins
Bevan, Aneurin (Ebbw Vale) Henderson, Thomas (Glasgow) Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. (Denbigh)
Birkett, W. Norman Henderson, W. W. (Middx., Enfield) Morrison, Herbert (Hackney, South)
Bondfield, Rt. Hon. Margaret Herriotts, J. Morrison, Robert C. (Tottenham, N.)
Bowen, J. W. Hirst, G. H. (York W. R. Wentworth) Mort, D. L.
Broad Francis Alfred Hirst, W. (Bradford, South) Moses. J. J. H.
Brockway, A. Fenner Hoffman, P. C. Muff, G.
Bromley, J. Hopkin, Dainel Muggeridge, H. T.
Brothers, M. Horrabin, J. F. Murnin, Hugh
Brown, C. W. E. (Notts. Mansfield) Hudson, James H. (Huddersfield) Naylor, T. E.
Brown, Ernest (Leith) Hunter, Dr. Joseph Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (South Ayrshire) Hutchison, Maj.-Gen. Sir R. Noel Baker, P. J.
Buchanan, G. Isaacs, George Oliver, George Harold (likeston)
Burgess, F. G. Jenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath) Oliver, P. M. (Man., Blackley)
Burgin, Dr. E. L. Johnston, Thomas Owen, H. F. (Hereford)
Buxton, C. R. (Yorks. W. R. Elland) Jones, F. Llewellyn. (Flint) Palin, John Henry
Caine, Derwent Hall. Jowett, Rt. Hon. F. W. Paling, Wilfrid
Cameron, A. G. Jowitt, Sir W. A. (Preston) Palmer, E. T.
Cape, Thomas Kelly, W. T. Perry, S. F.
Carter, W. (St. Pancras, S. W.) Kennedy, Thomas Pethick-Lawrence. F. W.
Charleton, H. C. Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M. Picton-Turbervill, Edith
Clarke, J. S. Kinley, J. Pole, Major D. G.
Cluse, W. S. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. George Potts, John S.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. John R. Lathan, G. Pybus, Percy John
Cocks, Frederick Seymour Law, Sir Alfred (Derby, High Peak) Ramsay, T. B. Wilson
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock) Law, Albert (Bolton) Rathbone, Eleanor
Compton, Joseph Lawrence, Susan Raynes, W. R.
Cove, William G. Lawrle, Hugh Hartley (Stalybridge) Richards, R.
Daggar, George Lawson, John James Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)
Dalton, Hugh Lawther, W. (Barnard Castle) Riley, Ben (Dewsbury)
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton) Leach, W. Riley, F. F. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Denman, Hon. R. D. Lee, Frank (Derby, N. E.) Ritson, J.
Duncan, Charles Lee, Jennie (Larnark, Northern) Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Ede, James Chuter Lees. J. Romeril, H. G.
Edge, Sir William Lewis, T. (Southampton) Rosbotham, D. S. T.
Edmunds, J. E. Lloyd, C. Ellis Rowson, Guy
Edwards, E. (Morpeth) Logan, David Gilbert Salter, Dr. Alfred
Eimley, Viscount Longbottam, A. W. Samuel, H. Walter (Swansea, West)
Foot, Isaac Longden, F. Sanders, W. S.
Gardner, B. W. (West Ham, Upton) Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Sawyer, G. F.
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd (Car'vn) Lowth, Thomas Sexton, James
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Lunn, William Shaw, Rt. Hon. Thomas (Preston)
Gibbins, Joseph MacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Seaham) Shephered, Arthur Lewis
Gibson, H. M. (Lancs. Mossley) MacDonald, Malcolm (Bassetlaw) Sherwood, G. H.
Gill, T. H. McElwee, A. Shield, George William
Gillett, George M McEntee, V. L. Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Shillaker, J. F. Sutton, J. E. Welsh, James (Paisley)
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Taylor, R. A. (Lincoln) West, F. R.
Sinkinson, George Thurtle, Ernest Westwood, Joseph
Smith, Ben (Bermondsey, Rotherhithe) Tinker, John Joseph Whiteley, Wilfrid (Birm., Ladywood)
Smith, Frank (Nuneaton) Tout, W. J. Whiteley, William (Blaydon)
Smith, Rennie (Penlstone) Townend, A. E. Wilkinson, Ellen C.
Smith, Tom (Pontefract) Trevelyan, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Smith, W. R. (Norwich) Vaughan, D. J. Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Snell, Harry Viant, S. P. Wilson R. J. (Jarrow)
Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip Walkden, A. G. Winterton, G. E.(Leicester,Loughb'gh)
Snowden, Thomas (Accrington) Walker, J. Wise, E. F.
Stamford, Thomas W. Wallace, H. W.
Strachey, E. J. St. Loe Watkins, F. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Strauss, G. R. Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda) Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr. Charles Edwards.
Sullivan, J. Wellock, Wilfred
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-Colonel Fielden, E. B. Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Ainsworth, Lieut.-Col. Charles Forestier-Walker, Sir L. Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. William
Ashley, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Wilfrid W. Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E. Peto, Sir Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Atholl, Duchess of Ganzonl, Sir John Ramsbotham, H.
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley (Bewdley) Gault, Lieut.-Col. Andrew Hamilton Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Balfour, Captain H. H. (I. of Thanet) George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesea) Rodd, Rt. Hon. Sir James Rennell
Balniel, Lord Gibson, C. G. (Punsey & Otley) Ruggles-Brise, Lieut.-Colonel E. A.
Bird, Ernest Roy Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir John Russell, Alexander West (Tynemouth)
Blindell, James Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E. Salmon, Major I.
Bourne, Captain Robert Croft Gunston, Captain D. W. Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Bowyer, Captain Sir George E. W. Hacking, Rt. Hon. Douglas H. Sandeman, Sir N. Stewart
Boyce, H. L. Hammersley, S. S. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir Philip A. G. D.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Hanbury, C. Savery, S. S.
Brass, Captain Sir William Hannon, Patrick Joseph Henry Shepperson, Sir Ernest Whittome
Brown, Col. D. C. (N'th'I'd., Hexham) Haslam, Henry C. Sinclair, Sir A. (Caithness)
Brown, Brig.-Gen.H.C.(Berks,Newb'y) Henderson, Capt. R. R.(Oxf'd, Henley) Smith, R. W.(Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Burton, Colonel H. W. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P. Smith-Carington, Neville W.
Butler, R. A. Herbert, Sir Dennis (Hertford) Smithers, Waldron
Cadogan, Major Hon. Edward Hurd, Percy A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Carver, Major W. H. Iveagh, Countess of Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, East)
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester, City) Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Southby, Commander A, R. J.
Cayzer, Maj. Sir Herbt. R. (Prtsmth,S.) King, Commodore At. Hon. Henry D. Spender-Clay, Colonel H.
Chadwick, Capt. Sir Robert Burton Knox, Sir Alfred Thomas, Major L. B. (King's Norton)
Christie, J. A. Lamb, Sir J. O. Thomson, Sir F.
Colfox, Major William Philip Lambert, Rt. Hon. George (S. Molton) Tinne, J. A.
Colville, Major D. J. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Titchfield, Major the Marquess of
Courthope, Colonel Sir G. L. Lewis, Oswald (Colchester) Todd, Capt. A. J.
Crookshank, Capt. H. C. Little, Dr. E. Graham Turton, Robert Hugh
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Llewellin, Major J. J. Wallace, Capt. D. E. (Hornsey)
Dalrymple-White, Lt.-Col. Sir Godfrey Locker-Lampson, Rt. Hon. Godfrey Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. Lambert
Davidson, Rt. Hon. J. (Hertford) MacRobert, Rt. Hon. Alexander M. Warrender, Sir Victor
Davies, Dr. Vernon Maitland, A. (Kent, Faversham) Waterhouse, Captain Charles
Davies, E. C. (Montgomery) Makins, Brigadier-General E. Wayland, Sir William A.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F.(Somerset, Yeovil) Margesson, Captain H. D. Wells, Sydney R.
Dixey, A. C. Mason, Colonel Glyn K. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel George
Edmondson, Major A. J. Meller, R. J. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Elliot, Major Walter E. Millar, J. D. Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount
England, Colonel A. Mond, Hon. Henry Womersley, W. J.
Everard, W. Lindsay Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. Sir B.
Falle, Sir Bertram G. Morrison, W. S. (Glos., Cirencester) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Fermoy, Lord Muirhead, A. J. Major Sir George-Hennessy and Sir George Penny.