DEPARTMENT OF SCIENTIFIC AND INDUSTRIAL RESEARCH. (Hansard, 24 July 1930)

§ Mr. MANDER

I do not think there is any Department of the State doing work of more real value at the present time than this Department, and my only complaint is that it has not been found possible to give them, and for them to utilise, a considerably larger sum than appears in this Vote. I agree that you cannot hand over money unless a scientific staff has been trained and unless it is there to do the work that may be allocated to it. But I hope the Department are looking ahead and arranging to have trained chemists and others who will be ready to take on work of this kind as and when the funds may become available. If you compare the amount that we are spending in industrial research—£500,000 a year—with what our competitors are spending for similar purposes, you will find that the amount is very small indeed. I understand that in the United States of America something like £15,000,000 is contributed annually by the State for industrial research, and in Germany something like £10,000,000, and all our chief competitors are spending sums from State sources of a very much larger amount than anything that we are giving here.

When you come to think that one single great corporation in this country, Imperial Chemical Industries, is, I understand, itself spending something like £1,000,000 a year on scientific research, 2519 the figure of £500,000 which the State is contributing looks pitiable, and I hope the time may come before very long when the Government may feel disposed to give a much larger contribution. From the point of view of employment in industry in this country it is of vital importance. We are looking around in every direction to find something which will draw us out of the terrible situation in which we are, and it might well be that a comparatively small sum spent on scientific research would produce a discovery which would enable very large numbers of men to be employed on some process of a very cheap nature which would enable us to obtain access to markets which we cannot possibly reach now. I believe that British chemists, trained in this country, in our universities or elsewhere, are as capable as any chemists in the world of wresting from Nature the secrets which she guards so closely.

At the present time, there are something like 20 State-aided groups of in-industrial research. I believe the whole of our principal industries are covered, and I know well, from my personal experience on the research council in the industry in which I am personally engaged, the paint and varnish industry, how deeply the assistance which the Department is giving is appreciated and how widely the movement is supported, not only in that trade, but in all the 20 different industries which are being assisted in this vital work by Government grants. There is one industry that I do not think is tackling the problem of industrial scientific research in the way that it ought, and that is the mining industry. My right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), when he presided over the Coal Industry Commission, reported and recommended that there was a great deal more to be done in the way of scientific research in connection with mines, and that the problem was not being faced properly at all. I doubt very much, from such information as I have, whether it is being properly faced to-day, and I hope that the Government, now that the Coal Bill is through, will give their attention to this matter and see that that side of the problem is tackled in the way, on the scale, and on the basis of organisation 2520 which it deserves from the very important nature of the industry.

There is the question of low temperature carbonisation, which is being dealt with to some considerable extent under this Department, and there is a number of very interesting investigations going on. It is of immense importance. It might revolutionise the use of fuel in this country, and I hope that no expense will be spared to push on with fuel research such as is now being undertaken. One has only to look through the list of subjects that are being dealt with by the Department to see how wide is their scope and how widespread are the different activities to which they are giving their attention. There are the building industry, food, forest products, fuel, the National Physical Laboratory, radio, and other things of that kind, matters which affect almost every person in the country in one way or another.

I should like to know if the Minister is able to say what amount of scientific research is going on in connection with the railways in this country, and in this connection I was very interested to notice the other day that the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company, no doubt under the energetic leadership of Sir Josiah Stamp, have appointed a distinguished scientist, Sir Harold Hartley, as director of scientific research for that railway. That is a great new departure, one to be highly commended, and it would be interesting to know whether any of the other railways have taken or are contemplating any steps of the same kind. I think they would be very well advised to follow the example set in this matter by the London, Midland and Scottish Railway Company. Possibly the Minister can give us some information on that subject.

It is extremely difficult to assess the exact value of work done by any particular scientist or chemist. You cannot as a rule work it out in pounds, shillings and pence. For instance, the work done by Faraday must have involved the saving of many millions, and possibly hundreds of millions, of pounds in the way of electrical development, but it is quite impossible as a rule to assess things of that kind exactly. Therefore, I think it would be interesting to the Committee to have 2521 two small examples of cases where the exact expenditure and the exact saving have been calculated. I notice that Mr. Garcke, the well-known industrial leader, speaking recently of researches on the insulating power of oil as conducted by the Electrical and Allied Industries Research Association, said that the experiments had cost about £8,500, while the saving to the electrical trades had been about £100,000 a year. He further said that the researches of the heating of electric cables had cost £18,500, and that they had saved the industry at least £250,000 per annum. These are two striking examples of the sort of results that can be obtained from applying science to industry, and therefore the Government ought to be encouraged to go forward and extend this work.

Is the Financial Secretary quite sure that a proper co-ordination is taking place of all the research activities which are being carried on under different Government Departments? I quite understand that the fighting services must for obvious reasons maintain certain work of this kind in their own hands, and it is also understood that medical questions and agriculture are being kept outside the work of this Department, but is the hon. Gentleman certain that, apart from those cases, there is a proper co-ordination, and no overlapping of any kind in connection with the research work that is being done? I am glad to know that a good deal of the research work of the Empire Marketing Board is being done through this Department, and it is desirable that the whole of it should be controlled and supervised by that Department in order that there may be no loss or overlapping. It is sometimes said that work of this kind is apt to get into the hands of bureaucrats who are not supposed to have any energy or foresight. Criticism of that kind is on the whole quite wrong. It cannot apply in this case, because the work of the Department is being carried out under an advisory council containing people bearing some of the most distinguished names in science and industry, like Sir Ernest Rutherford, Sir David Milne-Watson, Sir Arthur Balfour, Sir William Bragg, Sir William Larke, Professor Lindemann, Lord Rayleigh and others. This work is of immense importance to the 2522 State at the present time, and it deserves every praise and encouragement. I hope that the Financial Secretary will be able to indicate that the Government take the same view, and that they are determined to do the utmost in their power to encourage, support and develop this great work.

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence)

I have listened with a great deal of interest, and I may say with pleasure, to the speech of the hon. Member for East, Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), and I can assure him and the Committee that the Government view this question of research not only with deep interest, but with most sympathetic consideration, as they regard it as of vital importance to the well-being and prosperity of the industries of this country. The Committee are no doubt aware that this body is under the presidency of the Lord President of the Council; they have an advisory committee consisting of a number of men distinguished in science, and it is already known that Sir Ernest Rutherford will take the chairmanship when the present chairman retires. The hon. Member says that he hopes that money will not be stinted for this important purpose. I would remind him that the Estimates for the current year show an increase of £23,000 as against the figure for last year. In addition to that, there have been increases in the money which comes into the coffers of this committee from other sources. That alone shows, I think, that what is generally regarded as the flint-hearted Treasury has not been looking with a jaundiced eye at the expenditure on scientific research.

Further than that, in addition to the £500,000 to which the hon. Member referred as being the aggregate of the money which the Committee spend, there is the remains of what is known as the Million Fund. A sum of £1,000,000 was put up two years ago, and there is still some of that money left. That sum would in time be exhausted, and the Treasury have already promised, when the proceeds of that fund are exhausted, to put the services which are at present covered from that fund directly on the Vote, and financed out of the Exchequer. The hon. Member asked in regard to railways. I understand that there is a proposal to 2523 set up a locomotive research department, and it has been suggested that the Government should pay half the cost, amounting to £56,000. I can tell the hon. Member that that is being sympathetically considered by the Government at the present time. We look with a friendly eye at the experiments of the Advisory Committee, and all the proposals put forward by them have been accepted. I must not, as the representative of the Treasury, however, go too far. The Treasury have to keep a watchful eye on expenditure, and it would be improper for us unduly to burden the taxpayer, even for this highly desirable and admirable service. Within the proper limits of economic care which the Treasury must exercise towards all expenditure, however desirable, the Government are fully alive to the importance of industrial research, and sympathetically consider all proposals for promoting it.