§ 30. Mr. LOVAT-FRASERasked the Home Secretary if he is aware that in a recent case at Chelmsford a, boy of eight years was placed on probation and at the same time sentenced to receive four strokes of the birch; and whether he will take steps to prevent probation and birching being combined in dealing with child offenders?
§ Mr. CLYNESI have made inquiry, and I am informed that the boy was before the court for two separate offences to which the boy's father pleaded guilty in his behalf. After consideration of the circumstances, the Justices decided that it was necessary for them to punish the boy for the one offence and to place him on probation for the other. The Justices appear to have acted within their discretion.
§ Mr. W. J. BROWNShame!
§ Mr. SPEAKER"Shame" is not a Parliamentary expression.
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Member rise to a point of Order?
§ Mr. McSHANEOn a point of Order.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot hear more than one point of Order.
§ Mr. BROWNI want to ask for your guidance. I do not know whether it is a point of Order or not, but I do assert that it is monstrous outrage—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—to punish a boy of that age—[HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"]—and I say to the Home Secretary—[HON. Members: "Name!"]—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI hope the hon. Member will not continue that kind of behaviour.
§ Mr. BROWNMay I raise this point? I desire to make this statement to you, that, whether it is in a Parliamentary sense in order or not, it is an outrage for a Home Secretary to justify the infliction of corporal punishment on a child—
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Member wishes to bring pressure to bear upon the Home Secretary, he knows that there are other means of doing it.
§ Mr. CLYNESWhat the hon. Member has just said shows that he is under a complete misapprehension as to the terms of my answer. I have not said a word to justify this decision of the magistrates.
§ Mr. CLYNESI have in mind the intention of conveying my views in the proper form to the justices.
§ Mr. LOVAT-FRASERMay I now ask my supplementary question?
§ Mr. CLYNESSteps have been taken repeatedly to draw the attention of the justices to the matter.
§ Mr. SPEAKERMr. Lovat-Fraser—
§ Mr. LOVAT-FRASERMay I ask if steps are taken to bring to the notice of the justices the impropriety of this practice—
§ Mr. SPEAKERI called upon the hon. Member to ask Question No. 31.
§ Mr. BROWNBefore we reach Question No. 31—[HON. MEMBERS: "Name!"I—may I ask the Home Secretary whether his attention—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Home Secretary gave a very complete answer.
§ Mr. BECKETTMay I ask, in view of the anxiety of a number of Members to know whether this sentence has been carried out, if we might not be allowed to ask that one supplementary question?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere have been a number of supplementaries already.
§ At the end of Questions:
§ Mr. BROWNOn a point of Order. I tried to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, before the exchange took place between the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister on the subject of the business for next week. My point of Order is this, that earlier to-day I directed a question to the Home Secretary in regard to a sentence of birching upon a child of eight. There was a supplementary question directed to ascertaining whether that sentence had been carried out, and I understood the Home Secretary to say that that matter must be raised on the Adjournment. I have consulted my friends, and I find that some days at least must elapse before that matter can be raised upon the Adjournment. I desire, therefore, to ask whether the Home Secretary will be good enough to say that, pending the matter being raised on the Adjournment, the sentence shall not be carried out on that child of eight.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI cannot say that that is a point of Order.
§ Mr. CLYNESAs no supplementary question was put raising the point which the hon. Member has now brought before the House, I was not able to give any answer. There was a misunderstanding on another point, which I tried to explain, but on account of the noise that occurred—[Interruption.] I have caused inquiries to be made as to whether the sentence has been executed, and, as a fact, I do not know.
§ Mr. CLYNESI can only say that the Home Secretary is not a court above a court. The justices have the discretion, and they reach decisions according to the merits and facts of the case. I generally presuppose that the men on the spot know most of the facts of the case and—
§ Mr. ERNEST BROWNOn a point of Order. Are other hon. Members to be allowed to put supplementaries on questions not reached? [HON. MEMBERS: "Hold your tongue!"] The hon. Member has no more right than we have.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member for Leith (Mr. E. Brown) is quite right. Every hon. Member has the same right as another. The latitude that was given was to clear up a misunderstanding that had apparently arisen owing to the Home Secretary not being able to reply. He has replied, and the question is now closed.
§ Mr. CLYNESWill you allow me—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe question is now closed.
§ Mr. W. J. BROWNOn a point of Order. [Interruption.] You may be fed up with it, but it is a very important matter.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf the hon. Member really has a point of Order to raise, of course, I will hear it, but he cannot raise any other subject.
§ Mr. BROWNI desire, with the utmost respect to you, to keep within the Rules of Order. The point of Order I now wish to raise is this. In your discretion, for which I am obliged, you have allowed me to try to clear up a misunderstanding between myself and the Home Secretary with regard to this matter. The Home Secretary was in process of trying to clear up that misunderstanding when a point of Order was raised from the other side. Your reply to the point of Order was that, the Home Secretary having explained the situation, the incident could now be regarded as closed. I now wish to submit to you that, in point of fact, the Home Secretary has not yet explained that matter, and was in process of doing so when the point of Order was raised by the hon. Member opposite.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Home Secretary gave a very full answer.
§ Mr. CLYNESrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. E. BROWNOrder! [HON. MEMBERS: "Shut up.") I have as much right as the hon. Member opposite.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThere has been quite enough disorder to-day.
§ Mr. CLYNESI was about to conclude my sentence by saying that I am now proceeding to get the facts, and, as far as the Home Secretary has any power to act, he will act as he thinks fairly when he is in full possession of the facts.