HC Deb 07 July 1930 vol 241 cc108-15

Section two of the Finance Act, 1928, shall be read as if the following sub-section were inserted after sub-section (8):— If on an application made for the purposes of this sub-section, and in such manner as the commissioners may prescribe, by the Royal National Life Boat Institution, it appears to the satisfaction of the commissioners that at any time within the period of six months preceding the date of this application, or within such longer period preceding that date as the commissioners may in any special case allow, there has been used on board lifeboats or tractors for the purpose of exercise or in connection with any operation carried out with a view to saving life or property any quantity of hydro-carbon oil, the Institution shall be entitled to obtain from the commissioners repayment of any duty which has been paid in respect of the oil so used.—[Rear-Admiral Beamish.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE

I notice, Mr. Young, that you have passed over a new Clause in my name and the names of several other hon. Members. I am sure you have seen the implication behind it.

The CHAIRMAN

I have seen the implication behind the hon. and gallant Member's proposal and behind all the new Clauses. If I proceeded on that line, I should select them all.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH

There are six names in support of this new Clause; I did not think it was necessary to get 607 other names, which I could have done. I am making this appeal on behalf of the Royal National Lifeboat Institution which does such remarkably good work on our coasts. In appealing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer I would remind him that the cost of this concession to the Exchequer would not be very great. Last year something like £500 or £600 was met by the Institution, and that sum goes a very long way towards the expenses of the Institution. It is a fact that in the past the Institution had the benefit of a rebate when the Petrol Duty was enforced some years ago, but by an oversight it was not included and was not given the rebate when the present tax was instituted. There has been a steady growth in the number of motor boats amongst the lifeboats around the coast. Last year over £100,000 was spent on the building of new motor boats, which, of course, use petrol. At the present time there are something like 80 motor boats stationed around the 5,000 miles of our coast, and 125 other boats which are either "pulling" or "sailing," or both. There will in future be an increase in the number of motor boats. That is natural in the present day of scientific progress. I think I can be absolutely positive, however, in saying that the cost to the Exchequer is never likely to exceed £1,000 a year. These motor boats vary in size and necessarily vary also in their consumption of petrol. They vary from 30 horse-power boats to vessels such as the biggest in the world which is to be named by the Heir to the Throne on Wednesday next at Dover.

There are other points in favour of the new Clause. One in particular is that fishing vessels which use petrol are exempt from this tax. It must be remembered that the more service the lifeboats carry out, the greater is the burden of the tax. Lifeboats are not used at ordinary times as fishing boats are, but are used only for two purposes—for exercise or for service. That being so, naturally it is to the interest of the Institution to keep down the expenses as far as possible. Notwithstanding that fact the Institution cost over £300,000 last year. I think I have said enough to show that the case is a good one for the lifeboats. There is another point of considerable importance. Modern science has provided the lifeboat service with a means of launching boats which was not heard of and certainly hardly dreamed of when I was a boy. That is the utilisation of what are called tractors. It may be that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks that these tractors are the ordinary machines that are seen on roads and are used for agriculture and so on. I would disabuse him of that idea, if he has it. These tractors are specially designed for this purpose. They are almost watertight, almost amphibious, and are capable of working on muddy, sandy or stony flat beaches where the water is very shallow, and whereas in the old days it was necessary to hire farm horses and there was great difficulty in using them in such difficult circumstances, nowadays these tractors can haul the lifeboat on its trolley into the water for launching in what would otherwise be impossible conditions.

The tractors are never used for any other purpose whatever. They are not hired out; they are the property of the Institution and are used solely for the launching of the lifeboat. I will make the confession that occasionally the tractor is used for drawing a lifeboat around a town, such as Bridlington, in order to show the people the way in which lifeboats are handled and tractors worked. I would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he feels that he can accede to my request, to state whether the concession can be made retrospective. The ship of state is not particularly seaworthy at the moment. The lifeboat is no respector of creeds or politics, and in case of need will be only too glad to render all possible service to His Majesty's Government, and at least save their lives if not their administration.

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE

If the hon. and gallant Gentleman would allow me, I would like to congratulate him on the extremely able, moderate and fair speech that he has made. Of course, any thing to do with the lifeboats appeals very much to all Members of this Committee. On the other hand, in this matter of the Petrol Duty my right hon. Friend has to harden his heart against rebates, in this direction or that, which will gradually wittle away the principle of the duty. The proposal contained in this new Clause may be divided into two parts. In the first place there is a proposal that the actual use of petrol on board the lifeboat should be free from duty by means of a rebate. In the second place it is proposed that the petrol used in the tractor should be free from duty. With regard to the first, we have already a rebate given to boats which are used for the purpose of fishing, and my right hon. Friend is prepared to view sympathetically the proposal to extend to lifeboats the rebate now given to fishing vessels. To that extent he is very glad to be able to meet the suggestion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

With regard to the petrol used by the tractors he is afraid that the proposal goes beyond what he is prepared to concede. He feels that in that case he would be passing to a land usage and would be starting a new principle which would give rise to a number of other demands for concessions of a similar kind. What he has empowered me to do is this: If the hon. and gallant Gentleman is willing to withdraw his new Clause now, my right hon. Friend will put down an Amendment for Report, in carefully chosen words which will grant the rebate for the boat, for the petrol used an the boat, but he regrets that he will not be able to extend the concession to the petrol used by the tractor. The hon. and gallant Gentleman also raised the question of the concession being retrospective. I am afraid that we could not go as far as that. My right hon. Friend's Amendment will be framed to show that the concession is not retrospective, but applies to the future. In view of that statement, I hope that the hon. and gallant Gentleman will see his way to withdraw his Motion and Clause.

Commander SOUTHBY

Before the Clause is withdrawn I would say how much we appreciate what the Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised to do in regard to the petrol used on the lifeboats. I would, however, make a further appeal to him. The tractor is as much an essential part of the lifeboat service and the life-saving service as the engine in the boat itself, and therefore the argument that the tractor is a land machine, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer cannot include it in his concession, really falls to the ground. There are only about 30 tractors in existence in the British Isles to-day. It is not as if there was a tractor at every lifeboat station. The concession asked for involves only a very limited number of these highly specialised machines, which are used for nothing else but the launching of lifeboats. I appeal to the Financial Secretary to say whether between now and Report he will reconsider the decision regarding tractors, which are just as much a part of the boats' gear as the engines or masts or sails inside the boats.

Mr. E. BROWN

My father was the coxswain of a lifeboat for nearly 40 years. I would point out to the Financial Secretary that the case is not as broad as he seemed to think it is. It is in special cases where the boat could not be launched, either because of the configuration of the coast or when bad weather makes launching impossible in the ordinary way, that these particular engines are used. The concession can only apply, therefore, to a very few of these fine machines. While we welcome to the full the concession made with regard to the petrol used in the boats, I hope that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer goes into the matter again he will be able to go one step further and free this great lifeboat service from any tax on its operations.

Major ROSS

There are one or two smaller considerations that I would bring to the notice of the Financial Secretary. There are cases where the tractor is used with boats which are not provided with engines but are propelled by oars. Thus, although the concession assists the modern station which is well equipped, to backward parts of the country where the crews have to go out under harder conditions and pull their boat with oars, no assistance will be given. I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer wishes to assist the Lifeboat Institution as far as he can, but the concession so far promised will help only the well provided modern stations. Even in those cases where you have a boat with a petrol engine and with a tractor, it is going to be a matter of considerable administrative difficulty. The small quantity of petrol used by the tractor will have to be stored separately from the petrol used for a different purpose, and will have to be purchased separately. I should not have thought it was worth making the distinction between the process of bringing the boat down to the water's edge, which is just as much a matter of life-saving, and that of propelling it through the water itself. I should have thought that the proper and convenient place to draw the line would be to rule that all petrol, whether for propelling the boat on shore or through the water to save life, should not have to pay duty, because one cannot imagine a higher purpose to which any machinery whether on land or sea could be put.

7.0 p.m.

Sir WALTER GREAVES-LORD

May I put this point of view to the Financial Secretary? He has expressed the view that to extend this rebate further than the actual lifeboat itself would be to open the door to other applications. Does he not realise that the whole matter of rebate here will be put forward by the one institution, which is interested only in the service of life saving at sea, and that that institution has no responsibility except life-saving at sea? In those circumstances, surely it is clear from all that my hon. Friends have said that the use of the petrol is confined to that service. It is in the hands of one institution, and that institution takes upon itself the responsibility of guaranteeing that that petrol has been used only in connection with definite and purely defined service. In those circumstances, cannot he say to the Chancellor that it is perfectly clear that this opens no further avenues of demand, and does not extend the matter one whit beyond the spirit and letter of the original concession? Can he give us an undertakina to consider it?

Mr. PETHICK-LAWRENCE

I shall, of course, report what has been said to my right hon. Friend, but I cannot go further than what I have said, for the reasons I have given.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH

May I say one word before I withdraw my Clause? There has come into existence in recent years a type of lifeboat that is small and light and which, in view of the efficiency of the internal combustion engine, has replaced the old heavy sailing and pulling lifeboats on long stretches of flat beach in this country, miles from where any boat could lie on slips. The result is that this modern 35-foot motor lifeboat, which is now being used on the great flat stretches of open beach, is too heavy to be launched off the flat beach like the ordinary sailing and rowing boat. I do not say this will immobilise that type of boat, but it will add considerably to the expense of launching that type, which has been designed only in recent years If he will also make representations on that point to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I shall withdraw the Clause on the understanding that it will be reconsidered.

Captain PETER MACDONALD

I hope that the hon. Member will give us that undertaking. These boats have been working in practice in my constituency, and it is absolutely essential that they should have some means of mechanical traction to convey them into water sufficiently deep to enable them to come into operation. Although we appreciate all that the Financial Secretary has done, it is not asking too much to ask him to extend this remission to the tractors, or to any methods adopted to convey these lifeboats to the water. I hope that he will undertake to convey the very strong feeling on this side of the Committee and generally, that this matter should be considered. If he will give that undertaking, we shall all feel that he has done everything possible to meet this very great and urgent demand for help.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL

As the Chancellor has gone so far do not let us have any hair-splitting. Think of the difficulties that are involved! You are going to put the Institution into the position of having to say that so much petrol was used while the lifeboat was actually at sea and so much was used to get the lifeboat into the water. That is going to be a very difficult thing. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer has gone so far, the probability is that he has not had all the facts put plainly before him. I am convinced that, after the speeches made and the manner in which the whole matter has been placed before the Government, they will give way on this point. When you have made a good bargain and done a generous thing, leave it and do not spoil it. I am always opposed to retrospective legislation, but I sincerely trust that the Financial Secretary will use his persuasion not only to tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer what has taken place, but will also use that charm that we love so well with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he does that I am convinced that the general wish of all parties in the Committee will be realised.

Captain Sir BURTON CHADWICK

I do not know if the hon. Gentleman realises that all this development of motor propulsion of the lifeboat is a new and heavier charge on the lifeboat service. It is the story of the transition from sail to steam, and will become a great extra charge on the whole of the lifeboat administration. Having gone so far, why stop there? Why not include the whole of the service which is one service? I wish to reinforce what has been said and to ask the hon. Gentleman to press his right hon. Friend to include the whole service both tractor and lifeboat.

Rear-Admiral BEAMISH

In view of all the appeals made and of what the Financial Secretary has said, I should like, with the permission of the Committee, to withdraw the Clause, but I would impress upon the Financial Secretary that the whole Committee agrees with the points put forward, and I hope he will impress that on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Let us hope that on the Report stage, he will have found a point of view that will enable him to give way and let us have what we want.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.