CLAUSE 1.—(Motor Vehicles to which Part I applies.) (Hansard, 4 July 1930)

§ Mr. REMER
I beg to move, in page 1, line 7, to leave out the word "Motor", and to insert instead thereof the words "Mechanically Propelled".
12 n.
When the Bill was in Committee the Chairman said that if the word "Motor" remained in this part of the Bill there would be no opportunity of dealing subsequently with a tramcar or any other traffic on the road which was not a motor vehicle. An Amendment which you have not selected, which stands on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Ayr Boroughs (Lieut.-Colonel Moore)—in line 7, to leave out the words "motor vehicles" and to insert instead thereof the words "traffic on roads" goes very much wider than my Amendment.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
In considering the matter again, I have come to the conclusion that the Amendment is not in Order, and that the other Amendments which deal with this matter I have not selected.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE
While not in any way questioning your decision not to call my Amendment, I would point out that it was merely a preliminary Amendment of a group of three Amendments and that the subsequent Amendment is on Clause 29. If the scope of the Bill is sufficiently widened will it admit the 'subsequent Amendment to Clause 29?

§ Mr. SPEAKER
That is so. It would not be in Order to alter the words in the heading of the Clause.

§ Mr. REMER
The right hon. and gallant Member for Antrim (Sir. H. O'Neill) gave a decision upon this matter.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
I have nothing to do with a decision given by the Chairman of the Standing Committee.

§ Mr. REMER
As I understand it, in any subsequent consideration of this Bill there will be no opportunity whereby we can alter the Bill so as to deal with pedestrians, tramcars, or trolley vehicles which may be dangerous on the road. I have certain new Clauses down which deal with these specific points which were ruled out in Committee, and have been ruled out on Report. I assume now that under your Ruling it is impossible to deal with any of these questions at any part of the Bill.

§ Mr. SPEAKER
I have not selected those Amendments.

§ Mr. HERBERT MORRISON
I beg to move in page 1, line J.4, after the word "that" to insert the words "(a) the provisions of".
There was discussion in Committee as to whether certain provisions in Part I should not be made applicable to trolley vehicles and tramcars. I do not say that I entirely satisfied the Committee, but I think that I substantially satisfied them that tramcars were not appropriate vehicles to be subject to this part of the Bill, because they are working under fixed traffic conditions. I was convinced, as the discussion went on, that certain provisions under Part I. of the Bill should be applicable to trolley vehicles, which although not quite so mobile as motor cars nevertheless do possess considerable mobility. Therefore I have brought forward these Amendments to carry out the undertaking I gave during the Committee stage. The provisions which it is proposed to make applicable to trolley vehicles are those relating to the licensing of drivers, the disqualification for offences, endorsement for conviction; the Clause relating to careless and dangerous driving and being drunk in charge, and the Clause relating to inquiry into accidents. That I think fully carries out the undertaking I gave.

§ Mr. HERBERT MORRISON
I beg to move, in page 1, line 15, to leave out the words "or trolley vehicles."

§ Colonel ASHLEY
Do I understand that a number of provisions are to be 2333 applicable to trolley vehicles but not to tramcars? Is the provision relating to dangerous driving not to be applicable to tramcars? Perhaps the Minister of Transport will explain why dangerous driving of a, tramcar is not to be dealt with, while a man who drives a trolley vehicle is to be subject to these rather severe penalties. That is the only point that occurs to me.

§ Mr. MORRISON
I admit that there is a shadowy verge in the case of a tramcar—

§ Colonel ASHLEY
Not disreputable, I hope?

§ Mr. MORRISON
No. The tramcar is a very respectable institution. They have to work on fixed rails and the elements of driving are different from those of driving a trolley vehicle or a motor car, which can swing from one part of the road to another. It would be very difficult to frame a Clause dealing with trolley vehicles and motor cars which would not be nonsense when dealing with tramcars travelling under such different conditions. The driving of a tramcar is a different operation to that of driving a motor car. The second point is that tramway servants, while not being so disciplined as railway servants, are nevertheless somewhat sternly disciplined so far as driving is concerned. They work under Statute and are subject to regulations, in which the Minister of Transport has a considerable hand. We can safeguard the public interest by regulations. It is for those reasons that I did not see my way to bring them within the Bill. Trolley vehicles are in a different category.

§ Major GLYN
I recognise the difference between a trolley vehicle and a tramcar, and I think the Minister of Transport has more than carried out every promise he gave upstairs to make this Bill applicable to the trolley vehicle. I understand that there is power by regulation to deal with tramcars, which can only run under Statute, but the point is that it does not seem to be recognised that a tramcar can be one of the most dangerous vehicles on the road, especially in one-way streets. There are instances where the tramcar is superior to the one-way rule, and it is most disconcerting suddenly to find a tramcar pro- 2334 ceeding in the opposite direction to all other forms of traffic. A tramcar is exceedingly heavy and cumbersome. That is what makes it a very respectable vehicle, but it is most annoying when the driver suddenly puts on his brakes and, having sand on the rails, brings up the tramcar in a distance of half its own length. It means that the wretched person behind, having no indication that the brakes are going to be put on, finds himself telescoped in the back of the respectable tramcar. There should be some device by which drivers of tramcars can indicate when they are going to apply their brakes. With compulsory insurance in the Bill and imprisonment looming large, I am afraid that the tramcar will lose its reputation for respectability. The Minister of Transport, as the godfather of the tramcar, should see that it maintains its reputation for respectability. I hope tram drivers will be made subject to greater restrictions. They are exceedingly well trained men, but a trolley driver will operate in many cases under just the same licence as the driver of a tram. The driver of a tram under a local authority may be the driver of a trolley vehicle the next day. That matter will have to be dealt with by regulation.

§ Mr. PALIN
I am rather surprised at the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Abingdon (Major Glyn). His proposal would add to the dangers of the streets rather than decrease them. At the present time the tramcar is limited in speed, it has to make compulsory stops at cross roads, and observe many other things which do not apply to other vehicles. Any man who is driving behind a tramcar and cannot stop when the tram stops ought to be taken off the road.

§ Sir W. BRASS
I thoroughly disagree with the remarks of the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon - Tyne West (Mr. Palin). He may not be aware that tramcars have very powerful magnetic brakes which motor cars have not, and if a motor car is driving behind a tramcar at the same speed the tramcar can pull up in much shorter space than the motor car. Personally I think the tramcar very dangerous on the road and I am sorry it is not included in this Bill. Indeed, I think the title of the Bill ought to be changed. It should be called a Motor Traffic Bill instead of a Road Traffic Bill, because we have not been able to get 2335 tramcars included in it, or pedestrians or horse-drawn vehicle drivers. The only thing which is included in the Bill is a motor car. Tramcars are very dangerous in a narrow road; very often they take up the whole width of the road. Very often when one is going to pass on the left hand side, and the driver of the tramcar is not looking to see what is coming along, the motor car gets squashed against the kerb. I think the Minister of Transport should reconsider this point and include tramcars in the Bill as well as other vehicles.

§ Mr. KINLEY
From the remarks of the last speaker it is clear that the tram, when it stops suddenly, constitutes a danger to those who are behind, because the tram is so constructed that it can be pulled up within its own length. It will be admitted by everyone that every vehicle on the road ought to be able to stop, in case of emergency, in as short a space as possible. That obviously applies to tramcars. If the fact that the tramcar is able to stop suddenly in an emergency means that drivers of vehicles behind it are going to run into it, it is clear that those who are behind the tramcar are a public danger, inasmuch as, while using the public roads, they are not able to act suddenly and efficiently when an emergency arises. Every driver on the road ought to be compelled to be prepared to act suddenly and efficiently when emergency arises. An hon. Member interrupts to say that the motor driver cannot do it. Then the motor driver ought not to be on the road; he ought to be under the tramcar.
Let us look at this matter from the point of view that humanity has not to adjust itself to the motor car, but that those who are developing the use of motor vehicles must be compelled to recognise that man is by nature a pedestrian, that when emergencies arise the public must be safeguarded, and that whatever difficulty may be involved, so far as the motor driver is concerned, he must be compelled to face it. Let us take into consideration, first of all, not the comfort or convenience of the driver of any vehicle, but the safety of the public. Every vehicle on the road ought to be prepared to act efficiently in cases 2336 of emergency, and if it cannot do so the severest measures ought to be taken against it.

§ Dr. MORRIS-JONES
I have found in the Ministry of Transport a sympathy towards the tramcar system of the country. The Minister this morning has confirmed what I have found in my negotiations with the Ministry of Transport during some years. The largest town in my constituency has what, I am afraid, is one of the most appalling tramway systems of the country. Whenever we approached the Ministry of Transport we found that it had extreme sympathy with this system of locomotion—a sympathy which it did not appear to hold for the motorist. The trouble is not caused by the tramcar driver, who is one of the most efficient drivers in the country. The position is that we have trams running along roads that were never intended for them. They are a great danger to the public, as well as to motorists. In the particular town that I have mentioned the tramcars can hold up public traffic and the police do not seem to be able to say anything. As a matter of fact I do not know whether the police are not almost in league with the Minister in their sympathy with this kind of vehicular traffic. I realise that the tramcars in some streets in the particular area that I have in mind are at this moment a very great public danger. I am rather sorry that the present Minister of Transport is keeping up the reputation of his Department in being specially fascinated by this old and decrepit mode of locomotion.

§ Mr. REMER
In my view every form of danger on the roads should be dealt with very severely. It is quite idle for the Minister to say that tramcars cannot be a danger. Often they are driven into loops, off a single track, without any warning being given to oncoming traffic, and thereby are a very serious danger. On several occasions I have seen motor cars compelled to pull up in such a way as to be a positive danger. What happens on the main road to Hendon, where there are tramcars? It is the practice there of the trams to turn at the terminus and to back suddenly on to the other track by points, and by that means cause——

§ Mr. SPEAKER
The whole of this discussion is really out of Order. The word 2337 "tramcars" already stands part of the Bill. The Amendment only deals with trolley vehicles.