HC Deb 02 July 1930 vol 240 cc2109-14
Sir D. HERBERT

I beg to move, in page 28, line 34, to leave out from the word "Majesty," to the end of the Sub-section.

These words must have been inserted owing to some mistake, and I invite the spokesman of the Government to say how the words came to be put down, what they mean and whether there is any reason why they should not be left out?

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

I think that I can give the hon. Member a more satisfactory reply than he expects to receive. This is not a matter of any great importance, and I am prepared to accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Major NATHAN

I beg to move, in page 28, line 37, to leave out the words "and every director thereof," and to insert instead thereof the word "concerned."

This is the Clause whereby the duties are charged which have been the subject of discussion in the debates on the two preceding Clauses. Not only is the company in question made liable to the duty under the provisions of 'Subsection (2) of Clause 31, but every director thereof is also made liable. I am unaware of any provision in the law as it exists at present which places on a director an obligation of this character, the obligation of the directors generally being limited to liability to penalties for a specific breach of the Statute.

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

The hon. and gallant Member has made such an appealing case in support of the Amendment that I am prepared to accept it.

Amendment agreed to.

The following Amendment stood upon the Order Paper in the name of Major NATHAN:

In page 29, line 8, at the beginning, to insert the words: Where a company has become liable for payment of any estate duty by virtue of the provisions of either of the two last preceding sections of this Act.

Major NATHAN

It will be observed that Sub-section (4) gives the Commissioners of Inland Revenue powers to require any private company to furnish certain accounts and documents. This phrase "any private company" had crept in somehow and I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer will wish to bring it into conformity with the phraseology of the Clause. It would give the commissioners unrestricted rights in the matter, regardless of whether the Act applied or not. The modification which the Chancellor is about to suggest had escaped my notice. It makes my Amendment unnecessary, and I therefore do not move it.

Amendment made: In page 29, line 9, after the word "sections," insert the words" and the next following section."—[Mr. Pethick-Lawrence.]

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

I beg to move, in page 29, line 10, to leave out the word "private."

This is the Amendment which renders unnecessary the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for North-East Bethnal Green (Major Nathan).

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 29, line 10, after the word "company" insert the words: to which this Part of this Act applies."—[Mr. P. Snowden.]

Sir D. HERBERT

I beg to move, in page 29, line 13, after the word "other," to insert the word "relevant."

This is only a drafting Amendment.

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

I have considerable sympathy with the purpose of this Amendment, and although I am not at the moment in a position to accept it I will take it into consideration and see if an agreeable form of words can be discovered.

Sir D. HERBERT

If the right hon. Gentleman will include in such con- sideration my next Amendment—in page 29, line 13, after the word "particulars" to insert the words" in the possession or under the control of the company"—then I need not move it, and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment I have just moved.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Sir D. HERBERT

I beg to move, in page 29, line 16 to leave out the words "of five hundred pounds," and to insert instead thereof the words "not exceeding fifty pounds."

This Amendment is of some importance, but I hope, after our excellent behaviour to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he will regard it with sympathy. It deals with the question of the penalty. The Clause says: the company shall be liable to a penalty of five hundred pounds. I suggest that this is another of the Chancellor's jokes. I want to turn what he has inserted in the original Bill into something really wise, and to reduce the penalty to a sum not exceeding £50.

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

I very much regret that, for the moment, I have come to the end of my concessions. It is quite true that the sum of £500 is a big one, but one must remember that there may be very large sums involved—hundreds of thousands of pounds. Then it should be remembered also that the Commissioners of Inland Revenue have the right of mitigating penalties. Although the maximum penalty may be £500, I think it may be taken that it would be only in a very serious case that the full penalty would be imposed.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir FREDERICK HALL

I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that he should make an alteration. The Clause assesses the penalty at 2500; make it read "not exceeding."

Mr. SNOWDEN

The Inland Revenue Commissioners have, in Section 35 of the Inland Revenue Regulation Act, 1890, power to mitigate penalties.

Sir D. HERBERT

It may be true that the Commissioners have the power, but I want a proper discretion to be given to the court to whom the case may ultimately go, after the Commissioners. It is absurd to dictate to a court that it shall never inflict anything but the maximum penalty. If the right hon. Gentleman insists on keeping in the £500, I suggest that he should accept the suggestion in my next Amendment, and insert the words "not exceeding."

Mr. SNOWDEN

I will accept it, although I think I am in danger of making concessions which I may regret. I am quite willing to insert the words.

Major NATHAN

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to suggest any penalty could be imposed upon a company at the will of the Commissioners of Inland Revenue?

Mr. SNOWDEN

No.

Major NATHAN

I understand he really means that the courts have power to mitigate a penalty.

Sir D. HERBERT

I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment made: In page 29, line 16, leave out the word "of," and insert instead thereof the words "not exceeding."—[Sir D. Herbert.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Captain BOURNE

Some companies may not know for certain whether they are or are not liable for the duty, and I suggest that between now and the Report stage the Chancellor of the Exchequer might consider the desirability of the demand being made by the commissioners in the first instance. Clause 29, as amended, is rather ambiguous, and it might well be that the company did not send the necessary notification to the commissioners.

Mr. P. SNOWDEN

It is necessary that we should adjourn now if many hon. Members are to catch their trains. Un fortunately many of them when we are engaged until 12.15 find that the conveyances have ceased to ply for hire.

Sir A. STEEL-MAITLAND

I will not keep the Committee more than a minute. The right hon. Gentleman has undertaken to consider a number of things before Report, with the Attorney-General. Will he take steps to have their conclusions printed in the form of a White Paper, so that we on this side may have as much time as possible to consider them, instead of merely seeing them on the Report stage, which would mean hindering the proceedings?

Mr. SNOWDEN

I would not like to give that assurance. There may be objections to issuing our decisions in that form. At the moment I think the best way would be, if we decide to have any changes, to submit them as Amendments to be considered on Report.

Sir F. HALL

Will the right hon. Gentleman see that in lines 6 and 7 the words "not, exceeding" are inserted?

Question put, and agreed to.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Mr. P. Snowden.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Wednesday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Five Minutes after Twelve o'Clock.