§ Mr. BUCHANANI owe the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland some 958 slight apology for detaining him here tonight, and I should like to say that I have no wish to harass him or to inflict upon him needless attendance in the House. The matter that I want to raise is one which really concerns, not so much the Under-Secretary, as the Secretary of State himself in a matter of administration. I put a question to-day to the Secretary of State for Scotland, and have been in correspondence with him, with regard to the case of a constituent of mine on the South Side of Glasgow. This man got a bicycle for his boy on credit, as is very commonly done, particularly in the West of Scotland, at the moment. He paid a few shillings in instalments, and then the bicycle was stolen or at any rate it disappeared in some way. The man was sued for debt, and a decree was given against him for the debt and the expenses. He was in receipt of Poor Law relief when the firm gave him the bicycle, and they knew it. He was unable to pay, and he has now been arrested and is in prison for three months.
We have heard about the recent sentence of 14 years—a tremendously long sentence—for gigantic swindles, but here is a man who apparently is going to be kept in gaol for the rest of his life. As long as the firm who gave him the bicycle care to make certain payments, it appears that he can be kept in prison for the rest of his life, and what for? For getting a bicycle and not returning it. He is now in prison for three months, at the Duke St. Prison, Glasgow. I see that the Secretary of State has now come into the House, and I will just repeat what I have been saying. This man got a bicycle, and the firm who let him have it knew that he was unemployed. After paying only a few shillings towards the instalments, he is sued for debt because he cannot return the bicycle or pay for it, and now he is in prison for three months for the offence of keeping the cycle. I am told that, as this is a civil action, this man can be kept in prison for ever, until he either returns the bicycle—which is now unreturnable—or pays, and he has not worked for three or four years. The firm who gave him the bicycle knew this. Here is a speculative firm, anxious to get anyone to take their wares, and to some extent palming them off on to this man. He signs for his boy, and the bicycle 959 disappears. Really, I think it was stolen. He cannot return it, and cannot pay, and therefore is plunged into prison, until when? I do not know; it may be for ever. I would ask the Secretary of State if this is not a terrible state of affairs. I must confess that I never knew that it could happen in Scotland until this week.
§ Mr. KNIGHTWhat is the man committed for?
§ Mr. BUCHANANNothing, so far as I know. He is sued in the Small Debt Court, which is a Court in Scotland where you cannot sue for more than £20. The man did not appear, because he admits the debt. The decree was granted, as decrees are granted every day for debt, and then, because he cannot return the bicycle, he is arrested and plunged into prison, and the firm pay so much for his upkeep while he is in prison. I would like to ask the Secretary of State how much they pay. It appears that, as long as they keep on paying, this man can be kept in prison. He is a man of about 30, with three children, and one of the children is seriously ill at the moment.
§ Mr. KNIGHTHe is in prison for debt.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI never knew it to happen in Scotland before, and I would like to ask the Secretary of State how many prisoners there are in Glasgow for a similar offence. Hatry—I do not want to say a bad word about him; he has received a terrible sentence, but he has only got 14 years. This man, however, is in prison for ever, as long as the firm can pay so much a week. He has young children, one of whom is in anything but good health. I was not able to visit them myself, but my wife went to see them. He is kept in prison for taking a bicycle, for which the firm is as much responsible as he, because they knew that he was unemployed and could not pay, and yet they gave it to him. Can the Secretary of State give me the name of the firm, and can he say who is paying the weekly amount? It would be interesting to know, because they are carrying on in this fashion wholesale. They have proceeded against this man, not because they believe it to be right, but in order to put the fear of death into every other resident in the West of Scotland; they 960 are holding him up as a holy example of what will happen to the rest, unless they pawn their goods and chattels to pay a few shillings for stuff that has been given to them by people who know their position. I am perfectly certain that the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary will have every sympathy with this case, and will see that this kind of thing is not going to be carried on. There is a group of sharps—that is the only name that can be applied to them—in the West of Scotland who are palming off goods on to poor people. If that is allowed to go on, it is going to carry vindictiveness and wrong to a degree which I am sure no one in this House, and particularly on this side of the House and on the Front Bench, would care to defend.
§ The SECRETARY of STATE for SCOTLAND (Mr. William Adamson)In reply to a question put by my hon. Friend who has raised this matter, I have already to-day sent him the following reply:
Peter Connelly is confined in prison for failure to implement a decree of the Glasgow Sheriff Court for the delivery of a bicycle and for payment of 13s. 4d. of expenses. The bicycle was obtained on the hire purchase system. The case is a civil one, in which I have no jurisdiction to intervene.I further added, in reply to that question, that I would take steps to let Connelly know his legal position.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThe last portion of my right hon. Friend's answer was not included in the letter that I received to-day.
§ 8.0 p.m.
§ Mr. ADAMSONIt is just possible that my hon. Friend is right, because I expected to be able to give this answer across the Floor of the House, but, as you know, Mr. Speaker, Scottish questions were not reached to-day, and it is just possible that the last portion of the answer I have quoted may not have been in the letter which was sent to my hon. Friend from the Office. My hon. Friend, before he raised this matter in the House to-night, came to see me, and I told him that I would look into the matter and verify the statements that he was making. I find that either the information that has been placed at the disposal of my hon. Friend or the information placed at my disposal is wrong. Connelly obtained a bicycle, of the value of £6 18s. 6d. on the hire- 961 purchase system, from Messrs. Young, Ltd., Stockwell Street, Glasgow, on the 25th May, 1929, at which time he was in regular employment with the Parks Department of the Glasgow Corporation. That is the first point where our information clashes, because, if I understood my hon. Friend aright, he said that this man had been idle for the last three years, and that the parties knew, when they were giving him the bicycle, that he was idle. The information that is passed on to me is that he was in regular employment with the Corporation of Glasgow. The bicycle was obtained on the hire-purchase system and Connelly signed an agreement to the effect that the value would be repaid by instalments of 2s. 6d. a week. He made the first payment of 2s. 6d. when he took possession, another Is. 6d. on 1st June, and a further 1s. 6d. on 8th June, since when nothing has been paid. In September last, Messrs. Young ascertained that Connelly, who had not replied to repeated applications for further payment, had left his employment, and on 8th November a small debt summons was delivered. The hon. Member who seems a little concerned as to what crime the man had committed will please pay attention. He failed to appear. Surely, if my hon. Friend's statement that the bicycle was stolen is true, he ought to have appeared and told the sheriff.
§ Mr. BUCHANANThe right hon. Gentleman is not so well acquainted with the sheriff's court as I am. I attend it regularly. What happens is that a man is asked if he admits the debt, and if he can return the bicycle, and if he says "No," the decree is granted automatically. Even if he said he had no bicycle to return, the decree would be automatically granted.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI think my hon. Friend is under the impression that Connelly was being sued—
§ Mr. BUCHANANHe has been sued for delivery. It was a delivery case, too.
§ Mr. ADAMSONSurely, the least he could have done, not in the interests of Messrs. Young but of himself and of his wife and family, was to appear and to explain that the bicycle had been stolen, and I am certain the sheriff would not have granted a decree of delivery. There is another point on which our information differs. My hon. Friend says the bicycle had been stolen before Connelly was summoned to the Court. My information is that the bicycle was in his possession as late as 6th January after he had been some time in prison.
§ Mr. BUCHANANNo bicycle has been in his possession since he has been in prison. It might have been before he went, but not since.
§ Mr. ADAMSONI am giving the information as passed on to me, neither adding nor taking from it. I told my hon. Friend I would make a closer inquiry into the matter with the view of ascertaining whether his information or mine was a correct version of what occurred, and I think he would have been well advised to allow it to rest at that.
§ Mr. BUCHANANEven admitting that the whole of ray right hon. Friend's case is right, is that sufficient to keep a man in prison for life?
§ Mr. ADAMSONThat is one of the points I discussed briefly with my hon. Friend. I told him I was prepared to go into the matter from the point of view of discussing whether it was not possible for a petition to be presented to the sheriff's court, or to the Supreme Court for his liberation. I think that would have been the better way if my hon. Friend could have seen his way to restrain himself from raising it in the House—
§ Notice taken that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
§ The House was Adjourned at Twelve Minutes after Eight o'Clock until To-morrow.